Coaching and systems

[Newfoundlandleaf]

Want to see if we can start a discussion here... I'm a life long maple leaf fan, all the way back to if Borje Salming would play in game 7 in 1978 against the islanders.... This team in the last 2 years gives me more confidence than any time I have followed them, except for maybe the 1993 team... My question is... What gives? How can players not seem to follow a system? We have to assume Carlyle is not being tuned  out, he is a competent coach...missing one defensive defenseman in Fraser and one shut down forward in Kulemin does not cause all the running around we saw last night...Carlyle had a full camp... Puck possession was a worry at the beginning of the year and last year... I see this team as having the talent to follow a system... Thoughts?

 

[TML fan]

The system itself is the problem. The team plays a crappy brand of hockey, but have been getting the goaltending to make it work. The Leafs aren't nearly as bad as they look on most nights.

The Leafs have bought into the system. The system is just wrong.

 

[Keonist]

I would appreciate it if people on this forum, who know a lot more about hockey, and systems than I do, would use this thread to analyse, explain and critique CArlye's system.  I'll just follow and learn.

 

[princedpw]

I would appreciate it if people on this forum, who know a lot more about hockey, and systems than I do, would use this thread to analyse, explain and critique CArlye's system.  I'll just follow and learn.

+1

Me too.  I'd love to see people analyze the Leaf's system and compare it to other teams who are more successful when it comes to puck possession.  In other blogs, people sometimes post a series of snatshots and show how play progresses from one to the next and the mistakes made and/or consequences.  I know that is a lot to ask from this forum, but if somebody did it, I'd certainly listen.

 

[Redleaf]

Puck possession and grittiness are disappearing attributes on this team at the moment. Toughness is a pretty big part of Carlyle's 'system'. I think the return of Kulemin, Fraser and Clarkson should help moving forward.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't know if the issue is so much the system as much as it is some of the execution issues, regardless of the system. The biggest, most obvious issue with the team is giveaways. While it's not the best statistic in the world, the fact that Leafs are so far ahead of everyone else in the league in terms of being charged with a giveaway is pretty telling.

They're making bad decisions with the puck. It's really that simple. As long as they keep giving the puck away like this, it doesn't really matter what the system is.

 

[Keonist]

OK, point understood.  So what systemic downfalls, or personnel flaws or coaching weaknesses would cause a team to be so bad at giveaways, worst in the NHL?

 

[TML fan]

They give the puck away so much because they lack puck support in their own end on breakouts, as everyone is either too deep in the zone or too far up the ice. All you have to do to break the Leafs down is activate your defenceman and forecheck, forecheck, forecheck. The Leafs D needs time and space to make those 90 foot passes. If you get on them they will cough it up every time. They have no other outlet. Defencemen pinch along the boards forcing the wingers with no puck support to chip it or give it away under pressure trying to make a play. Either way it's a turnover. This is why they get outshot every night.

 

[moon111]

Might want to read this article.

Maple Leafs defensive scheme Devilish in design by JAMES MIRTLE
... Fraser says, is almost a replica of the one he learned in his rookie year under legendary coach Jacques Lemaire... a strong forecheck and plenty of offence ? would hardly be compared to the neutral zone trap... elements he has borrowed are clearly working...

Source:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/maple-leafs-defensive-scheme-devilish-in-design/article8652308/

The article goes on to mention how far shots are coming from.  Using the link in the article, I compiled how far the average shots and goals are coming from.

2008-2009
Shots for: Average distance. 36.3
Shots against: Average distance. 35.3

2009-2010
Shots for: Average distance. 35.8
Shots against: Average distance. 34.7

2010-2011
Shots for: Average distance. 37
Shots against: Average distance. 36.3

2011-2012
Shots for: Average distance. 35.7
Shots against: Average distance. 35.4

2012-13
Shots for: Average distance. 35.3
Shots against: Average distance. 37.4

As you can see, the opposition is shooting from further away while the Leafs are getting in more closer then ever before.  I think the system is working.

 

[L K]

Average shot distance shouldn't mean a whole heck of a lot without seeing the standard deviation of those shots.  It's all well and good if the average Leaf shots are better, but if most of them are still from the outside it doesn't mean much.  For the average shot the Leafs are keeping to the outside, they have been giving up far too many closer shots.

 

[bustaheims]

Average shot distance shouldn't mean a whole heck of a lot without seeing the standard deviation of those shots.  It's all well and good if the average Leaf shots are better, but if most of them are still from the outside it doesn't mean much.  For the average shot the Leafs are keeping to the outside, they have been giving up far too many closer shots.

Shot location is important, too. A 5 foot shot from 6 inches off the goal line is not the same as a 5 foot shot from right in front of the net, but, they count equally in terms of measuring distance.

 

[Rebel_1812]

Average shot distance shouldn't mean a whole heck of a lot without seeing the standard deviation of those shots.  It's all well and good if the average Leaf shots are better, but if most of them are still from the outside it doesn't mean much.  For the average shot the Leafs are keeping to the outside, they have been giving up far too many closer shots.

This is just another theory to analyze teams just like corsi.  Corsi doesn't look at quality of shots, but Caryle certainly is.  Perhaps shot distance would be a good way to measure shot quality since shots in close would have a highier likelihood of scoring versus shots from center ice, unless your nik lidstrom.

 

[L K]

Average shot distance shouldn't mean a whole heck of a lot without seeing the standard deviation of those shots.  It's all well and good if the average Leaf shots are better, but if most of them are still from the outside it doesn't mean much.  For the average shot the Leafs are keeping to the outside, they have been giving up far too many closer shots.

Shot location is important, too. A 5 foot shot from 6 inches off the goal line is not the same as a 5 foot shot from right in front of the net, but, they count equally in terms of measuring distance.

Not to mention it really is a context specific thing too.

A 40 foot shot with traffic in front of the net is more dangerous than a 30 foot shot with the goaltender having a clean look at the shot.
A breakaway and rebound can be considered the same shot distance, but one lets the player set for the shot and the other is a rushed shovel at the net.

I'm not deciding that Carlyle is only looking at shot distance for his metric of defensive play, but I certainly hope is taking the whole picture into account.

I don't think the pressure of defensive hockey should be undervalued like it seems to be currently too.  Offensive shifts where you are controlling the play with puck possession are less tiring than a defensive play where you are forced to rely on positioning.  Right now the Leafs are getting killed in this way and in close games against very good teams this is going to burn them eventually.

 

[Newfoundlandleaf]

They give the puck away so much because they lack puck support in their own end on breakouts, as everyone is either too deep in the zone or too far up the ice. All you have to do to break the Leafs down is activate your defenceman and forecheck, forecheck, forecheck. The Leafs D needs time and space to make those 90 foot passes. If you get on them they will cough it up every time. They have no other outlet. Defencemen pinch along the boards forcing the wingers with no puck support to chip it or give it away under pressure trying to make a play. Either way it's a turnover. This is why they get outshot every night.
[/quote

Ok, this seems to make sense... Thank you... Now, if we go with the idea above, can this be " realized/ coached around/ fixed" ... That's part of my point... I fully assume Carlyle is aware of this, as are the players... If the " Blue and White disease" is gone.. Where is the discipline from the players to fix it? Is there too much youth .. ie. they need more time to fix it? Hopefully the debate can continue here... The coaching carousel leads me to believe that players simply stop listening... Boudreau simply picked up after Washington and now is listened to in Anaheim? Torts and vingeault (sp)... Simply change places and the players listen more? It seems a system is taught, you play it ... I don't agree Carlyle would implement a poor system ... The announcers last night were even talking about the leafs running around in their own end.. Again , why?

 

[Newfoundlandleaf]

Seems I out my comment and quote together... Moderators, please feel free to fix!!

 

[hockeyfan1]

Here's an article from last sping's playoffs on what makes a good coach, how and why players adhere to a system, etc.,...

Scotty Bowman loved the players ? absolutely loved them ? but he had a job to do,? Babcock said. ?Mike Babcock loves the players. When you?re pushing people who don?t want to be pushed, sometimes they don?t like it. I?m here to tell you: When you look at the group of coaches who are still playing right now, they?re pushing their people. That?s just the reality. Whether that?s perceived as positive or negative ??

?See, in my world, that?s positive,? he said.

Bowman coached from the 1960s into the 2000s because he evolved with the game and often stayed ahead of it. Babcock has evolved with the game, too, and he has had to evolve with his own team systemically and psychologically.

The Wings outnumber the puck carrier in the defensive zone, like most teams do nowadays. They aren?t quite as skilled as they used to be throughout the lineup, but they use speed and grit to make up for it as best they can. Scouts say they work as hard as ever before.

?In the D zone, I?d never heard of ?the swarm? before I got here,? said defenseman Kyle Quincey, who spent 2005-08 in the Wings organization, left for almost four seasons, then returned at the trade deadline last year. ?He never talked about that eight years ago. But if you look around on video, all the teams do it now. He?s definitely a very good systems coach. He?s definitely challenged me to a better player, for sure. A lot of skating in this system."

Does Babcock handle the players differently these days? Depends on whom you ask.

Babcock will tell you he gives the veterans their space, and that?s true. He holds fewer meetings with them. Players will tell you that he harder on the veterans, and that?s true, too. He has higher expectations of them because of their experience level.

Players will tell you he is more positive with the youngsters than he used to be. Others will tell you he has been more positive with the youngsters out of necessity, because at some point he had to embrace the situation and get the most out of what he had if the Wings had any chance to win."

"I think he loves to teach..."

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--babcock-keeps-pushing-red-wings-in-perhaps-his-best-coaching-job-ever-184636304.html

 

[OldTimeHockey]

The system isn't flawed. The personnel is flawed.

 

[moon111]

The system isn't flawed. The personnel is flawed.

I don't think anyone is complaining about 8th highest offense.  It's the suspected play of the 10th best defense, which seems to be quite lucky.  28th in shots against.  Is the personnel flawed?  Gardiner, Reilly, and Ranger have had early trouble.  All they need is time.  The system might not be executed at 100% yet, but I don't think this team should be as defensive as some.  This team's offensive potential is really high.  They could be running and gunning and really giving up way more scoring chances

 

[Corn Flake]

The system isn't flawed. The personnel is flawed.

Maybe, but let's also recognize that the personnel are still quite young as a whole and it takes a lot of experience to be able to execute systems given the 5000x variables that occur in a game.  Each basic strategy has variables, such as zone exit strategies... if the opponent adjusts to what you are doing, how do you adapt? What if the forechecker is above the hash marks vs. below, where are the forwards to accept an outlet pass? does the d-man adjust or the forward?  just a basic observation but it's a big part of it.

Now someone will cite the Avs as a young team able to execute... thing is eventually teams will figure them out and they will return to earth. 

Just one point of many but youth is part of the reason this team has trouble consistently executing the system, which IMO is really quite simple at the core.

 

[TML fan]

They give the puck away so much because they lack puck support in their own end on breakouts, as everyone is either too deep in the zone or too far up the ice. All you have to do to break the Leafs down is activate your defenceman and forecheck, forecheck, forecheck. The Leafs D needs time and space to make those 90 foot passes. If you get on them they will cough it up every time. They have no other outlet. Defencemen pinch along the boards forcing the wingers with no puck support to chip it or give it away under pressure trying to make a play. Either way it's a turnover. This is why they get outshot every night.
[/quote

Ok, this seems to make sense... Thank you... Now, if we go with the idea above, can this be " realized/ coached around/ fixed" ... That's part of my point... I fully assume Carlyle is aware of this, as are the players... If the " Blue and White disease" is gone.. Where is the discipline from the players to fix it? Is there too much youth .. ie. they need more time to fix it? Hopefully the debate can continue here... The coaching carousel leads me to believe that players simply stop listening... Boudreau simply picked up after Washington and now is listened to in Anaheim? Torts and vingeault (sp)... Simply change places and the players listen more? It seems a system is taught, you play it ... I don't agree Carlyle would implement a poor system ... The announcers last night were even talking about the leafs running around in their own end.. Again , why?

The system isn't flawed per se, but it's more practical for teams who can't score, unlike the Leafs. The Leafs have a ton of firepower and should really play more aggressively than they do. The idea behind it is to essentially weather the storm and catch teams in an over aggressive posture. It relies heavily on solid goaltending and special teams, which fortunately the Leafs have had. That's why it's been so successful in the regular season up to this point. In my opinion it's a really lousy way to play hockey and it will eventually catch up to them, as it did in the playoffs when they inexplicably reverted to it in game 7 after, in my opinion, dominating the possession game for the majority of the series.

I feel like the Leafs have so many offensive minded players who play better with the puck and want to have the puck in the offensive zone. While I believe the entire team has bought into what Carlyle is preaching, I don't think they are quite suited to the style he wants them to play. A I said, the Leafs lack puck support in their own end. When the puck comes to a winger at the side boards, they want to make a play, but they can't because there is nobody there for an outlet. This is what is causing the turnovers. If the D have the puck, the forwards have flown the zone forcing the D to chip it out or make a low percentage pass to a stationary target who, if he even receives the pass, has no alternative but to dump it in. A dump and chase game is useless without speed. The D have too much time to make a play.

The fact that the Leafs are highly skilled up front has allowed them to capitalize on mistakes made by their opponents with great frequency, but it really is a game that leans heavily on the opponent screwing up rather than actually generating offence by themselves.

My conclusion based on these observations, is that Caryle needs to loosen them up a little defensively and allow his players to do what they do best, play on the offensive side. After all, when you have the puck, you aren't getting scored on.