2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[Redleaf]

You mean significantly better than what they were supposedly just about to agree to late last week?

That has yet to be seen, I guess, but I don't think there's that significant a gap between them outside of the variance on the deals. I just meant that they've gotten the owners to moderate their position with every subsequent offer.

For sure.  I don't think there is much left to squeeze though but Fehr seems willing - and has convinced the players - to go as far as he needs to in order to extract every potential penny.  He seems fine with the concept of holding everyone over the edge of the season cancelling cliff to do it too.

This is the biggest stumbing block to get over in these negotiations. Both sides believe that they smell blood from the other side right now. This is a dangerous stance for both parties to take this late in the game, and the one final hurdle that could essentially still kill the the rest of the season. Lets hope they both aren't as stupid as they come across right now, and that cooler heads can still prevail.

 

[Kin]

Lets hope they both aren't as stupid as they come across right now, and that cooler heads can still prevail.

I think that's silly. Neither side comes off as stupid right now and Fehr especially doesn't come off as hot-headed. Like CF said, he couldn't have seemed calmer or collected on Thursday or in press conference on Saturday. He's a seasoned negotiator who's been here before. He's not freaking out or "smelling blood in the water". He's negotiating a major CBA and the process is at a critical junction. This is what he's good at, probably the best in the world. There's a reason the players are paying him millions of bucks to do this.

 

[Fanatic]

What's a Disclaimer of Interest as it relates to the NHLPA and is this seriously being talked about?

 

[bustaheims]

What's a Disclaimer of Interest as it relates to the NHLPA and is this seriously being talked about?

It's essentially the same thing as decertification, except that, instead of the players choosing to no longer be represented by the union, it would be union choosing to no longer represent the players. It's a shorter process and doesn't involve having to do before the NLRB to get it done. It can, however, be challenged in court by the league if they feel it's only being used as a negotiating tactic.

I thought this was a pretty good article about it and how it could relate to the NHL (and why it's not necessarily a good move for the PA):

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/story/2012/11/30/sp-nhl-lockout-nhlpa-diclaimer-of-interest.html

 

[Fanatic]

What's a Disclaimer of Interest as it relates to the NHLPA and is this seriously being talked about?

It's essentially the same thing as decertification, except that, instead of the players choosing to no longer be represented by the union, it would be union choosing to no longer represent the players. It's a shorter process and doesn't involve having to do before the NLRB to get it done. It can, however, be challenged in court by the league if they feel it's only being used as a negotiating tactic.

I thought this was a pretty good article about it and how it could relate to the NHL (and why it's not necessarily a good move for the PA):

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/story/2012/11/30/sp-nhl-lockout-nhlpa-diclaimer-of-interest.html

Thanks man. Applause to ya..... oh wait, we don't do that anymore.  ;D

 

[Redleaf]

Lets hope they both aren't as stupid as they come across right now, and that cooler heads can still prevail.

I think that's silly. Neither side comes off as stupid right now and Fehr especially doesn't come off as hot-headed. Like CF said, he couldn't have seemed calmer or collected on Thursday or in press conference on Saturday. He's a seasoned negotiator who's been here before. He's not freaking out or "smelling blood in the water". He's negotiating a major CBA and the process is at a critical junction. This is what he's good at, probably the best in the world. There's a reason the players are paying him millions of bucks to do this.

There no arguing that Fehr has a calming public demeanor, but he's also pushing this thing to the brink, and still hoping to win this (if you can call what the players will end up with when this gets settled a win). He's obviously telling the players that the owners will give more when he's really not sure they will. Educated gamble? Call it what you will, but I'm not sure he can wring out much more, and he's now cost the players another 2 weeks of hockey with his calculation. I hope he's not telling the players that the owners will cave at the last minute here, but it must be something along those lines or they would have taken the offer that was on the table last week, that many players seemed to have been ok with. Either way the deal ain't getting much better for the players, time is running out fast, and there is still a chance that Fehrs persistence on more and more from the owners will blow up in his face.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

He seems fine with the concept of holding everyone over the edge of the season cancelling cliff to do it too.

Bettman doesn't seem to have an issue holding everyone over that same cliff either.

That sure didn't seem to be the case last Thursday.  Fehr was calm and collected... Bettman was going out of his mind.  The former knew last week that there is at least another few chapters to this saga.. the latter thought they were on the final one.  It was obvious from their respective reactions.

I think Gary has been willing to drive to the cliff if need be, but Fehr is fine with the car hanging two front wheels over and rocking.

That's really what you took from that?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

He seems fine with the concept of holding everyone over the edge of the season cancelling cliff to do it too.

Bettman doesn't seem to have an issue holding everyone over that same cliff either.

And, really, neither of them should have an issue with that. What's the point in a game of chicken if the other guy knows you're going to blink?

I completely agree. Once all 'love of the game' has been removed from the conversation(as it should be), the discussions are going much the way many bargaining agreements go in many area's of life.

Bettman's tirade/hissy fit was a bit much to take seriously, but that's just my opinion.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

It's Jack Todd, so take it for what it's worth:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/montreal-canadiens/Jack+Todd+Time+Bettman+Fehr+busy/7674027/story.html

Somehow, even union members miss that salient fact when it comes to the NHLPA. They are mesmerized by the salaries of a handful of overpaid players (hello, Scott Gomez, wherever you are) and taken in by the owner propaganda.

Like spurned fan-boys, they rage that a hockey player who risks life and limb every time he steps on the ice can make $5.8 million a season ? but they don?t bat an eye when a train wreck like Britney Spears makes $58 million, simply for being famous.

They earn far more but, in the way that matters most, they stand for us. If their union wins, your union wins. If collective bargaining works for them, it is a sign that it can work for everyone, that it can help to address some of the drastic and growing inequities in our society.

The truth is that, with league revenues what they are, the players are simply not overpaid. The bottom line is that there is no excuse for what Bettman and the hardline owners are doing to our national game. They are acting out of insatiable greed, combined with a bitter hatred of unions in any shape or form.

As custodians of the game, they stink. Trusting hockey to Bettman and the board of governors is like trusting the chimpanzees to run the banana concession at the zoo.

As agent Allan Walsh pointed out Sunday, Bud Selig Jr. and the owners of Major League Baseball learned the hard way that they couldn?t crack Fehr and that the best approach for all was to work with him, rather than trying to undermine the man in the eyes of the players.

Bettman prefers the scorched-earth approach. Rage, fulminate, threaten ? and walk out of the room when you don?t get your way. It hasn?t worked so far. It isn?t going to work. And this lockout is going to last precisely as long as it takes Bettman to understand that fundamental truth, to stop striking poses, get down to business ? and make a deal.



Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Jack+Todd+Time+Bettman+Fehr+busy/7674027/story.html#ixzz2EgIG78Ei

 

[hockeyfan1]

It's Jack Todd, so take it for what it's worth:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/montreal-canadiens/Jack+Todd+Time+Bettman+Fehr+busy/7674027/story.html

Somehow, even union members miss that salient fact when it comes to the NHLPA. They are mesmerized by the salaries of a handful of overpaid players (hello, Scott Gomez, wherever you are) and taken in by the owner propaganda.

Like spurned fan-boys, they rage that a hockey player who risks life and limb every time he steps on the ice can make $5.8 million a season ? but they don?t bat an eye when a train wreck like Britney Spears makes $58 million, simply for being famous.

They earn far more but, in the way that matters most, they stand for us. If their union wins, your union wins. If collective bargaining works for them, it is a sign that it can work for everyone, that it can help to address some of the drastic and growing inequities in our society.

The truth is that, with league revenues what they are, the players are simply not overpaid. The bottom line is that there is no excuse for what Bettman and the hardline owners are doing to our national game. They are acting out of insatiable greed, combined with a bitter hatred of unions in any shape or form.

As custodians of the game, they stink. Trusting hockey to Bettman and the board of governors is like trusting the chimpanzees to run the banana concession at the zoo.

As agent Allan Walsh pointed out Sunday, Bud Selig Jr. and the owners of Major League Baseball learned the hard way that they couldn?t crack Fehr and that the best approach for all was to work with him, rather than trying to undermine the man in the eyes of the players.

Bettman prefers the scorched-earth approach. Rage, fulminate, threaten ? and walk out of the room when you don?t get your way. It hasn?t worked so far. It isn?t going to work. And this lockout is going to last precisely as long as it takes Bettman to understand that fundamental truth, to stop striking poses, get down to business ? and make a deal.



Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Jack+Todd+Time+Bettman+Fehr+busy/7674027/story.html#ixzz2EgIG78Ei

Not surprising.  As I've said all along, it's invariably up to Bettman.  He and he alone can make the ultimate difference, as the writer too also mentioned, in the approach and attitude taken. 

If it's true of what the MLB owners learnt, on their dealing with Fehr, then so too must the NHL owners.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Jack+Todd+Time+Bettman+Fehr+busy/7674027/story.html#ixzz2EgIG78Ei

Not surprising.  As I've said all along, it's invariably up to Bettman.  He and he alone can make the ultimate difference, as the writer too also mentioned, in the approach and attitude taken. 

If it's true of what the MLB owners learnt, on their dealing with Fehr, then so too must the NHL owners.

I'm of the opinion that Fehr's attitude made Bettman's tirade/hissy fit look even more ridiculous. If both sides were throwing tantrums in front of the media it wouldn't be as bad, but when the leader seems at a loss, IMO(now it's just my opinion) it shows a weakness and it leads Fehr to believe that "Hey, maybe we're getting to them."

 

[Bates]

The problem with the calm,cool,and collected Fehr is that it's his clients who will suffer the most from this lockout.  If there is no deal this season his people will have lost on average 20% of their career.  Being cool might look good but it's the deal that matters.  I don't see today's deal being any better for the players than the offer of 2 or 3 weeks ago and that could have saved the players 3 or 4 paydays.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

The problem with the calm,cool,and collected Fehr is that it's his clients who will suffer the most from this lockout.  If there is no deal this season his people will have lost on average 20% of their career.  Being cool might look good but it's the deal that matters.  I don't see today's deal being any better for the players than the offer of 2 or 3 weeks ago and that could have saved the players 3 or 4 paydays.

Here's the thing...It's easy to use the "they'll never get that money back argument" when dealing with these situations...I know, I've used the same ones as I've never been a union supporter as usually it's my business effected by the strike/lockout...but that's not the fundamentals behind a union.

The goal of a union is to lose now to profit later. That's how they grow strength. Through solidarity and looking at the future of incoming players and future players. While it's usually not the truth, and not what the members are all feeling, it's what you signed up for when you unionized...and Fehr being the ultimate union leader in pro sports knows exactly how to show his members what the future looks like(right or wrong)..It's his job.

 

[jdh1]

The problem with the calm,cool,and collected Fehr is that it's his clients who will suffer the most from this lockout.  If there is no deal this season his people will have lost on average 20% of their career.  Being cool might look good but it's the deal that matters.  I don't see today's deal being any better for the players than the offer of 2 or 3 weeks ago and that could have saved the players 3 or 4 paydays.

I couldn't agree more..they should have been playing hockey by now or at least in training camp getting ready for a 60 game season.

 

[Kin]

I completely agree. Once all 'love of the game' has been removed from the conversation(as it should be), the discussions are going much the way many bargaining agreements go in many area's of life.

Bettman's tirade/hissy fit was a bit much to take seriously, but that's just my opinion.

I think Fehr said it best himself when he said that sports fans, especially those who are personally unfamiliar with the collective bargaining process, tend to kind of rely on a default analogy of sports when it comes to negotiations like this with winning and losing and scores when really it's not applicable to what's going on.

 

[Andy007]

The problem with the calm,cool,and collected Fehr is that it's his clients who will suffer the most from this lockout.  If there is no deal this season his people will have lost on average 20% of their career.  Being cool might look good but it's the deal that matters.  I don't see today's deal being any better for the players than the offer of 2 or 3 weeks ago and that could have saved the players 3 or 4 paydays.

Where do you get the idea that Fehr is only interested in looking cool? The fact is the players have been locked out 3 out of 3 times and continually bowing to whatever drastic changes the NHL wants will only result in more lockouts and work stoppages down the road. The NHL proposal contains some pretty heavy NHLPA concessions, which includes a preposterous 5 year max contract limit. The fact that players are giving up '3 or 4 paydays' illustrates (to me, at least) that they are thinking beyond just the money and the individual player. And I still fail to see where the coolness factor comes into play.  ??? 8)

 

[Kin]

The problem with the calm,cool,and collected Fehr is that it's his clients who will suffer the most from this lockout.  If there is no deal this season his people will have lost on average 20% of their career.  Being cool might look good but it's the deal that matters.  I don't see today's deal being any better for the players than the offer of 2 or 3 weeks ago and that could have saved the players 3 or 4 paydays.

That just doesn't make any sense. The offer of last week was better than the offer that was on the table two or three weeks ago. And four paydays for the players represents 2 whole months.

But more than that, Fehr's job at it's fundamental root isn't to tell his players what the best course of action is or persuade them to take the one that makes them the most money. His job is mainly to educate his players on what the issues are but, when that's done, to take his cues from the players on what to do. He should advise, and he probably is, but the players not taking the most recent deal is on them, not him.

 

[Kin]

There no arguing that Fehr has a calming public demeanor, but he's also pushing this thing to the brink, and still hoping to win this (if you can call what the players will end up with when this gets settled a win). He's obviously telling the players that the owners will give more when he's really not sure they will.

That just comes off as more dime store psychology on your part without having inside knowledge either of Fehr or the proceedings. There's no history on Fehr's part of being driven by any personal need to "win" or "telling" players anything so definitive. Like I said above, relying on default analogies of winning and losing may be comforting to a sports fan but it's not all that illustrative of what's going on here. This is, at root, a dispute between the BoG and the players. Not Fehr and Bettman.

Either way the deal ain't getting much better for the players, time is running out fast, and there is still a chance that Fehrs persistence on more and more from the owners will blow up in his face.

Like I said before, people have been saying essentially the exact same thing since October and every time the owners have come back to the table with an offer that was better for the players.

 

[Bates]

@adater reported last week that players had wanted to vote on nhl's latest offer and we're told by Fehr to wait and he could get them more. Adater reported this story as it was relayed to him by a player.

 

[Bates]

The offer of last week was not really better than 2 weeks ago. While it increased the amount of make whole money it also had longer time to pay this money and longer agreement which may or may not benefit players. If players had signed deal just over 2 weeks ago there would have been time for almost full season. By going under 62 game regular season the amount of money advertisers are required to pay is half what would be required.  Players lost half that money. Not too mention the would have received a payday in Nov and 2 in Dec. That's 3 paydays gone.