maplesyrup
New member
It's a two-way street but man, the players are going to take a poop-kicking by the fans.
2012 CBA Negotiations Thread
- Thread starter Kin
- Start date
- Status
bustaheims
Active member
The Sarge said:
It's hard to really make much of a judgement without knowing more of the details of the PA's offers, but, from the sounds of things, the league has moved off their initial position much more than the players have - and that's disconcerting, because I really believe the owners have come just about as far as they're willing to.
maplesyrup
New member
bustaheims said:
I don't know why but I get that feeling too.
bustaheims
Active member
michaelgrange: Bettman -- our proposal was made public because it was being erroneously tweeted Tuesday night #twitterpower
michaelgrange: Only detail Bettman provided was that the player's proposal included an increased share of HRR in year 1 ...
michaelgrange: My guess is the #NHLPA still want raises of 2,4 and 6 % in first 3 yrs or all three proposals. @mirtle heckles.
michaelgrange: The #NHLPA were asking for $1.91B in yr 1 (vs $1.87b last yr) If they stuck to that it explains Bettman's comment.
michaelgrange: Only detail Bettman provided was that the player's proposal included an increased share of HRR in year 1 ...
michaelgrange: My guess is the #NHLPA still want raises of 2,4 and 6 % in first 3 yrs or all three proposals. @mirtle heckles.
michaelgrange: The #NHLPA were asking for $1.91B in yr 1 (vs $1.87b last yr) If they stuck to that it explains Bettman's comment.
Chev-boyar-sky
New member
bustaheims said:
I can't say I really see it that way. The NHl's original offer would have been similar to the players asking for 65% or something to that effect. The proposal by the PA today may have been similar to what they'd offered before but I guarantee you it was nowhere near as ridiculous as what the league offered as a starting point.
Tuesdays offer by the league was by many accounts (Fehr included) kind of underwhelming, and while offering the players a smaller haircut than their original ridiculous offer, had all the power being handed to the owners in all the various clauses.
If Bettman was expecting Fehr and the players to walk in with some conciliatory offer where they get taken left right and center then he's a fool.
IMO what the League offered the other day was a. to save face and b. to show the players what kind of concessions they're looking for on contracts @ 50/50 and it's waaaaay too much IMO.
bustaheims
Active member
Chev-boyar-sky said:
I disagree. Offering up a proposal that delinks salary from revenue, when getting that linkage was the main goal of the owners in the previous lockout, was equally, if not more, ridiculous a starting point.
bustaheims
Active member
mirtle: Fehr about to describe three proposals. No. 1: Would have fixed share in first three years. Share then frozen until hits 50% (Year 3 to 5).
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr insists that depending on revenue growth, NHLPA's first proposal does go down to 50 percent eventually
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr says No 2 proposal gets owners down to 50 percent with "only five percent growth"
mirtle: PA option No. 2: Players will get 25% of any growth. Their share would hit 51% by Year 4 and 50% by Year 5 with 5% growth.
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr on No 3 proposal - players to go 50/50 as long as owners promise to honor all contracts that were signed by players
mirtle: PA option No. 3: "We'll move to 50-50 as long as you honour contracts." Players get 13% up front to cover those contracts.
mirtle: These proposals are far too complicated for a tweet but will have further breakdown later. Fehr insists all will get to 50% after 4 or 5 yrs
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr says NHL rejected all 3 NHLPA proposals. Says NHL only willing to work off its Tuesday offer
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr; "Today is not a good day."
So, from the sounds of things, the PA presented offers that were delinked from revenue and could potentially get down to 50/50, depending on growth of HRR. Not surprised the league wouldn't play ball here. To get rid of that linkage, the PA would basically have to concede to everything else the league demands.
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr insists that depending on revenue growth, NHLPA's first proposal does go down to 50 percent eventually
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr says No 2 proposal gets owners down to 50 percent with "only five percent growth"
mirtle: PA option No. 2: Players will get 25% of any growth. Their share would hit 51% by Year 4 and 50% by Year 5 with 5% growth.
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr on No 3 proposal - players to go 50/50 as long as owners promise to honor all contracts that were signed by players
mirtle: PA option No. 3: "We'll move to 50-50 as long as you honour contracts." Players get 13% up front to cover those contracts.
mirtle: These proposals are far too complicated for a tweet but will have further breakdown later. Fehr insists all will get to 50% after 4 or 5 yrs
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr says NHL rejected all 3 NHLPA proposals. Says NHL only willing to work off its Tuesday offer
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr; "Today is not a good day."
So, from the sounds of things, the PA presented offers that were delinked from revenue and could potentially get down to 50/50, depending on growth of HRR. Not surprised the league wouldn't play ball here. To get rid of that linkage, the PA would basically have to concede to everything else the league demands.
bustaheims
Active member
Real_ESPNLeBrun: Fehr says all 3 proposals today dealt solely with players' share of HRR and core economics, didn't deal with other systemic issues
bustaheims
Active member
Just a quick note about the 3rd proposal, because, at first blush, it seems somewhat reasonable . . . since it comes with the stipulation that owners must honour existing contracts exactly as written (in fact, with advanced payments instead of the deferred payments the NHL's proposal included), it would likely be impossible to get to 50/50 this season, as the current signed deals are already in excess of 50% of what can reasonably be projected as the league's revenues.
Hampreacher
New member
Mr Bettman Mr Fehr
Negoaitation means each or one makes a proposal and the other negotiates and compromises. One gives here the other there. Mr. Bettman thinks negotiation means I tell you and you take it. Find middle ground. Maybe we need to give both a big vat of water to drink and then lock them in a room until they come to a compromise.
Negoaitation means each or one makes a proposal and the other negotiates and compromises. One gives here the other there. Mr. Bettman thinks negotiation means I tell you and you take it. Find middle ground. Maybe we need to give both a big vat of water to drink and then lock them in a room until they come to a compromise.
Chev-boyar-sky
New member
bustaheims said:
Asking the owners to honour contracts they signed, some only a few days before the CBA expired is only fair.
Asking players who've just signed a deal to go from 57% to 43% is about as ridiculous an offer as you can make.
maplesyrup
New member
Neither guy is new to collective bargaining. What's frustrating to me is that they both had to know this one was going to take a while. As a fan, I feel frustrated and betrayed not because they haven't been able to come to a deal yet but because they dragged their heels going to the table in the first place. Why the started the process so late is really just beyond me. Like I said, neither guy is a newbie here but they sure approached this whole thing like one.
maplesyrup
New member
John Shannon @JSportsnet
Maybe this is too simple...this CBA negotiation hinges on 1 thing. How to make sure players under contract get ALL of their money.
Maybe this is too simple...this CBA negotiation hinges on 1 thing. How to make sure players under contract get ALL of their money.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
Crosby says they were shot down in 10 minutes.
Love that "negotiating." Take my offer or nothing.
Love that "negotiating." Take my offer or nothing.
bustaheims
Active member
Potvin29 said:
It's awfully simple though - the PA proposed deals that all delinked salaries from revenues. This has been a non-starter since before the last lockout. Of course those proposal are going to be swiftly rejected. The same holds true for their proposals getting to 50/50 - without linkage, there's no way to guarantee it ever gets there in the 5 years all their proposals last.
I don't get all the rhetoric about "negotiating". If the owners are telling the truth and the league needs 50/50 to be successful then what is point of talking about offers that don't get them that result. If players don't believe them then talk about that and drop the crap about failure to negotiate.
bustaheims
Active member
Chev-boyar-sky said:
The owners' proposal never included not honouring those contracts, it just added deferred payments to them in order to accomplish the requested revenue split. The players were still going to be under contract for the term stipulated and earn the total amount they were contractually entitled to (adjust for escrow, as contracts under the previous CBA were as well).
bustaheims
Active member
Michael Russo @Russostrib
#NHL source: Owners were handed TWO proposals from #NHLPA; third (alleged 50/50) proposal was decribed, & not as 50/50 & more complicated
Michael Russo @Russostrib
#NHL source: Both first 2 #NHLPA proposals paid out $1.9 billion in '12-13 (more than '11-12) and got to 50-50 in Year 5
Michael Russo @Russostrib
Essentially, the #NHL source claims the league was never handed any 3rd proposal that was 50/50 AND honoring contracts by Fehr #nhlpa
#NHL source: Owners were handed TWO proposals from #NHLPA; third (alleged 50/50) proposal was decribed, & not as 50/50 & more complicated
Michael Russo @Russostrib
#NHL source: Both first 2 #NHLPA proposals paid out $1.9 billion in '12-13 (more than '11-12) and got to 50-50 in Year 5
Michael Russo @Russostrib
Essentially, the #NHL source claims the league was never handed any 3rd proposal that was 50/50 AND honoring contracts by Fehr #nhlpa
- Status