2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[Redleaf]

Enough already.

Who's up for a trip to Minsk? We'll catch a few KHL games and pick up a case of good Russian vodka to drink in the stands.

хорошая идея

We have our tour guide.... ;D

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Most relevant place for this.

NHL Lockout: Why do billionaires keep buying teams that lose money? (Updated)

The answer: There is a big gap between ?losing money? and actually losing money.

There is a strange dichotomy in NHL ownership. The owners, whether as companies or individuals, are extremely wealthy. Yet many teams reportedly lose money every year, and with few exceptions even the profitable clubs don?t make that much money. Why would phenomenally successful men sink money into a black hole like that? Is it simply a case of viewing hockey teams as luxuries where they can afford to bleed red a little?

While non-financial considerations undoubtedly come into play, the simplest explanation is that the financial picture for various NHL teams is a lot healthier than it is typically reported to be.

Take the Florida Panthers as an example. For many, the Panthers are a great case in point of what went wrong with the NHL?s expansion into the Sunbelt. Attendance has improved of late, but on a percentage basis still easily falls into the NHL?s bottom-third. The team has struggled for respectability on the ice, and off the ice the financial picture is generally seen as gloomy.

Last year, Forbes estimated that the Panthers lost $7 million. Over the last nine seasons, they calculate the Panthers total losses at $68 million, an average deficit of $7.5 million per season.

Interestingly, the picture that Forbes paints is at odds with that presented by Broward County. Broward County was primarily responsible for the construction of the Panthers? arena, and as a result gets to look at the books of the organization. According to the county auditor, the organization made $117.4 million in profit between 1998 and 2012.

How does a team losing $7.5 million per season rack up profits in excess of $100 million? There are a few reasons, and to find them we need to dig a little.

Read more: http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/11/16/nhl-lockout-why-do-billionaires-keep-buying-teams-that-lose-money/

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Fehr needs to put the latest offer from the league to a vote. I'm guessing the majority of the players would privately vote 'yes'.

I don't think that's really true.

The latest offer isn't really all that great. Read the sentiments of many players and the consensus of the ones who use social media is that they're not ready to accept what's on offer ATM.

 

[bustaheims]

Read more: http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/11/16/nhl-lockout-why-do-billionaires-keep-buying-teams-that-lose-money/

You have to read all the way down to the end of the article to realize that a good portion of its contents are very misleading. Much of the financial data represented is for the Pathers' ownership group's arena management organization, not for the Panthers themselves or for Sunrise Sports & Entertainment (the Pathers' equivalent of MLSE).

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Read more: http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/11/16/nhl-lockout-why-do-billionaires-keep-buying-teams-that-lose-money/

You have to read all the way down to the end of the article to realize that a good portion of its contents are very misleading. Much of the financial data represented is for the Pathers' ownership group's arena management organization, not for the Panthers themselves or for Sunrise Sports & Entertainment (the Pathers' equivalent of MLSE).

I see that update now - thanks for pointing it out!

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

He links in that update to this article at SBNation that tries to clarify it:

So what does that mean for SSE's (and Yormark's) profitability? That's hard to say. There are no exact numbers out there on the actual finances of the Panthers, be that HRR (which wouldn't necessarily reflect the money on the Panthers side of the business ledger) or open books. There are also no numbers for revenue or losses from the parent company of SSE itself.

But lets use the best numbers we have - the Forbes estimation of Panthers losses combined with the audited reports of AOC's profitability.

The numbers start to line up in 2008, where AOC had an $8.25 million profit and Forbes estimated the Panthers had a $9.4 million loss. That would mean an overall loss for SSE of $1.25 million that year which again, assumes there's no complicating numbers from the SSE part of the ledger and that the Forbes numbers are accurate.

In 2007, Forbes estimated the Panthers lost $7.1 million while AOC reported a profit of $9.5 million. That would mean, with the assumptions above, a $2.4 million profit for SSE. In 2006, Forbes estimated a $1.9 million loss while AOC had huge profits of $11.7 million. That's $9.8 million in pure profit for SSE in a year the Panthers themselves reported a loss.

So what does this all mean in the big picture? Essentially, that you can't trust the numbers the NHL (or the PA, for that matter) feeds you about team finances. The business that own and operate NHL teams are huge financial conglomerates with complicated accounting and organizational structure that are designed to maximize profits, tax breaks and long-term investment growth. And that's before we get to the point that the huge money to be made in professional sports is not in the year-to-year operating profit but in the exponential growth of the sale price a decade or two down the road.

Full: http://www.defendingbigd.com/2012/11/16/3654718/2012-nhl-lockout-Florida-panthers-profits-arena-losses-money-revenue

 

[bustaheims]

I see that update now - thanks for pointing it out!

No problem. I mean, it's obviously not a useless article, as it does point out one reason owning a team that costs more to operate that it brings in could be appealing, but, it's not a scenario that would apply to all teams that are losing money - not all ownership groups manage their arenas, etc. It's an interesting article.

 

[ZBBM]

I just named my new goldfish "Ian White."  Go Ian!!!

 

[jdh1]

Well,I guess I jumped the gun on a quick settlement to this CBA.I thought once they agreed to a 50/50 split it was only a matter of time that a agreement would follow.I like to be a forward thinker but obviously this is taking a lot of time to resolve.My bad.

 

[bustaheims]

Interesting article from Russo, showing how the NHL estimates the PA's most recent proposal would play out with the lockout's economic impact taken into consideration:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/179740001.html

Over the past few days, I have talked to a handful of players who have indicated how unfair it is that the NHL Players? Association has essentially agreed to a 50/50 split, yet now the NHL was moving the goalposts and won?t negotiate the contractual changes the league is seeking.

I made some calls to see if the former was true because I had been given a different impression ? that the NHLPA doesn't get to 50/50 over the course of its proposal, especially when one considers the potential loss of revenue this year due to the lockout after last year?s record $3.303 billion.

I have obtained a series of charts that the NHL presented the NHLPA based off the union?s most recent economic proposal (see below). If you look at the NHL's numbers, you can see why the league says the NHL and NHLPA aren't as close on a core economic model as Executive Director Donald Fehr indicated last Friday night during a news conference.

In the more extreme cases, I think they might be a little generous in terms of growth for 13/14, but, they might also be a little conservative on their estimates in the last couple seasons of the deal, so it probably evens out a little. This is why the NHL does not believe they're as close economically as the PA does.

 

[Kin]

The business that own and operate NHL teams are huge financial conglomerates with complicated accounting and organizational structure that are designed to maximize profits, tax breaks and long-term investment growth.

Full: http://www.defendingbigd.com/2012/11/16/3654718/2012-nhl-lockout-Florida-panthers-profits-arena-losses-money-revenue

I think that's probably the best simple point to take from the article. Most hockey teams aren't standalone entities and the reality of their financial situations, how they benefit the people who own them, is complicated and certainly not adequately summed up by Forbes' numbers.Especially whenpeople start talking about teams going out of business or that nobody will want to own a hockey team if Forbes estimates they posted a small loss.

 

[bustaheims]

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/17/report-player-called-out-for-criticizing-fehr-in-conference-call/

?In the last conference call, a player asked Don why he was learning details of the NHL?s last proposal through the media and not via Don or the players in attendance,? an NHL player told ESPNBoston.com. ?Don and some other players called that player out and basically embarrassed him for asking that.?

 

[bustaheims]

From Bill Daly:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409721

"Nothing was ever said or even suggested that we needed the details of our proposal "down to the comma. We told them the issues we wanted addressed in the system.  We told them we have provided a proposal that we think will effectively address those issues.  But we told them that we are open to discussing other ways to address those issues if they want to propose any.  In fact, we used the exact example of "if we need 5 and we have proposed 3+2 to get there, that we are happy to listening to and considering 4+1 instead. I'm not sure why they chose to characterize the way they did.  As I've said before.  I can only control what we say."

 

[bustaheims]

darenmillard: 4 days into moratorium NHL & PA did speak today by phone daly/steve fehr. There r tentative plans to meet in person on Mon nite #Sportsnet

darenmillard: Nothing confirmed in stone but looks like it will be the full compliment. Bettman, Daly, owners with both Fehrs and players. #Sportsnet

darenmillard: Bill Daly tells @Sportsnet "I can confirm we have tentative plans to meet on Monday. Their request, their agenda.  " cnt

darenmillard: "We will see if they have anything good to say."

 

[OldTimeHockey]

While I know both sides are guilty of what I'm going to quote(in this case, said by Bill Daly) from the TSN article, what I don't get, is why they continue to fling feces at each other. And although it isn't the most flagrant foul from the either side, there's no need for it. What should of been said was:

"We've decided to meet tomorrow night. No further comments."

I'm not sure why they chose to characterize the way they did. As I've said before, I can only control what we say."
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409721

 

[hockeyfan1]

In other words, there is still hope, right?

 

[bustaheims]

While I know both sides are guilty of what I'm going to quote(in this case, said by Bill Daly) from the TSN article, what I don't get, is why they continue to fling feces at each other. And although it isn't the most flagrant foul from the either side, there's no need for it. What should of been said was:

"We've decided to meet tomorrow night. No further comments."

Sure, but, to some extent, the recent comment on the meeting is in response to the fact that Fehr has repeatedly said the NHL would only meet to discuss their proposal or if they set the agenda, rather than the PA. It was an unnecessary jab, but an understandable one.

 

[skippy]

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/17/report-player-called-out-for-criticizing-fehr-in-conference-call/

?In the last conference call, a player asked Don why he was learning details of the NHL?s last proposal through the media and not via Don or the players in attendance,? an NHL player told ESPNBoston.com. ?Don and some other players called that player out and basically embarrassed him for asking that.?

Good ol' union bullying.

 

[Justin]

At least one industry is benefiting from the NHL lockout...

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/18/more-couples-buying-sex-toys-amid-nhl-lockout-retailers

 

[OldTimeHockey]

While I know both sides are guilty of what I'm going to quote(in this case, said by Bill Daly) from the TSN article, what I don't get, is why they continue to fling feces at each other. And although it isn't the most flagrant foul from the either side, there's no need for it. What should of been said was:

"We've decided to meet tomorrow night. No further comments."

Sure, but, to some extent, the recent comment on the meeting is in response to the fact that Fehr has repeatedly said the NHL would only meet to discuss their proposal or if they set the agenda, rather than the PA. It was an unnecessary jab, but an understandable one.

Well busta, at some point, one of these two buffoons has to stand up and say..."I'm going to be the bigger man here."

It's an understandable jab if you're on a playground and 8 years old. Trying to get the last word in makes them both sound like complete fools. We all know that from the Daly comment will come another Fehr comment and the cycle will continue until they officially cancel the season and blame the other one for making childish comments.