2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[Redleaf]

Why was Fehr even talking to the media last night?

Public support to put pressure on the owners to end this. It obviously backfired, but I really don't think the owners are packing up their toys and pulling the plug because of it. It was a calculated gamble that failed. He now needs to move a few more inches toward the owners proposal and hope for the best. This thing is close, but Fehr is still fighting for the best possible deal. Can't blame him for that. As I said above he now needs to hold a secret vote and see where the players stand on the leagues last proposal. If he doesn't do this than he may have pushed a little too far.

The question on the backfire is what the players are thinking today..do they feel they took Fehr's advice and it blew up or is he going to keep them thinking the big bad owners did this to them?  I think the smarter ones should be thinking the former rather than the latter by now, especially spending 3 days with owners and hearing their thoughts directly.

The league will probably sit and wait to see if the PA does anything today, and going by how Fehr operates, he probably won't do a thing... but the NHL should get on paper what THEY thought the final deal was going to be yesterday and publicize the heck out of it.. they need to the players to get to a vote on it. The players will read it and the ones in that room will know what is truth and what is a change.

This is certainly what the owners want to happen, and it could very well work. I'm sure Fehr is doing his best this morning at trying to convince the players that this is being orchestrated by the league. That having a vote right now plays right into their hands. But, like you said he's not only up against the owners this morning, but I'm sure the players are now questioning his motives as well. Interesting dilemma for Mr. Fehr.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

My question here is why the players are so adamant about these 2 conditions.  On the 5 year contract length, while these have increased in numbers, they are still available to far less than 10% of the players in the league and that's unlikely to ever become the norm for the vast majority of the league.  The length of the agreement seems to be a really trivial detail in all of this.  The league has proposed a 10 year agreement with an out clause from either side after 8 years.  Players have offered 8 year agreement with player out after 6 years.  Not sure what makes the 2 years worth the risk to this season.

Because if they go to a 5-year limit then the owners, where they can now out-compete each other with term-length to get elite players, will instead compete through higher yearly salaries to the top players.

So, as the PA have argued, you'll have an "NBA-style" situation where a few players at the top make a huge proportion of the salary, and the rank-and-file guys get squeezed down to the minimum.

Here's a good explanation of it, and as well demonstrates how it was the lesser players who saw huge salary growth in % terms during the last CBA, not the star players: http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=5098

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I really think Fehr is current problem. Fire Him and get rid of Bettman's style of dication negotiation is wrong. Get rid of him as well.

It's interesting that things were all rosy and optimistic this week until they brought Bettman and Fehr back to the table. Then things fell apart. Their disdain for each other is so strong that it's holding up the process of getting a deal done.

Bettman never did come back to the table, Fehr did.  Process blew up.  What does that tell you?

The process blew up on Tuesday night when the players apparently pissed off the owners with their offer.

 

[Bates]

Lots has been said in the last few days about NBA style salaries where the big guys get all the money and the others settle for the minimum.  Here is the Raptors salaries.  Where are the min guys?


Andrea Bargnani  $10,000,000

Amir Johnson  $6,000,000

Kyle Lowry  $5,750,000

Landry Fields  $5,000,000

Linas Kleiza  $4,600,000

Jonas Valanciunas  $3,374,640

DeMar DeRozan  $3,344,250

Terrence Ross  $2,563,320

Aaron Gray  $2,500,000

Ed Davis  $2,207,040

John Lucas  $1,500,000

Dominic McGuire $992,680

Alan Anderson  $885,120

 

[Corn Flake]

I really think Fehr is current problem. Fire Him and get rid of Bettman's style of dication negotiation is wrong. Get rid of him as well.

It's interesting that things were all rosy and optimistic this week until they brought Bettman and Fehr back to the table. Then things fell apart. Their disdain for each other is so strong that it's holding up the process of getting a deal done.

Bettman never did come back to the table, Fehr did.  Process blew up.  What does that tell you?

The process blew up on Tuesday night when the players apparently pissed off the owners with their offer.

It was the $100 mil the owners put on the table for make whole that night or the next morning and according to Daly, the players barely even acknowledged the addition. 

 

[Corn Flake]

This is certainly what the owners want to happen, and it could very well work. I'm sure Fehr is doing his best this morning at trying to convince the players that this is being orchestrated by the league. That having a vote right now plays right into their hands. But, like you said he's not only up against the owners this morning, but I'm sure the players are now questioning his motives as well. Interesting dilemma for Mr. Fehr.

I don't understand how Fehr can keep winning the battle of convincing the players to keep holding out for more money while they keep losing money.  The antics of last night cost them probably another 10 games of this year, so 1/8th more of their share gone just because they tried to squeeze the rock for some more water.

 

[Kin]

Lots has been said in the last few days about NBA style salaries where the big guys get all the money and the others settle for the minimum.  Here is the Raptors salaries.  Where are the min guys?

The Raptors aren't really the best example because they're almost singularly notable for their inability to attract the higher salary guys. The Knicks, for instance, have almost a third of their roster making the minimum.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Why do people feel the media press conference that Fehr had blew up all the negotiations? Did Bettman himself not say that the negotiations halted when the players made another offer instead of saying Yes or No.

If anything the players handled it the only way they could if they didn't agree. If they answered the latest NHL offer with a solid 'NO'...where would that leave negotiations? Those that support the NHL would be ripping them a new one. They would also look like the one's not willing to negotiate. So, they made another offer playing off the NHL's previous offer which is what you do in negotiations. Ultimatums are the death of negotiations. And we can p*ss back and forth that this is the best the NHL can do hence the ultimatum, but every offer they bring out is 'the best they can do' according to Gary.

Alot of people here are assuming that the players were ready to say yes, but I have a hard time believing an anonymous source. They very well could of been, but based on their comments afterwards, I have a hard time believing it.

So we are now stuck in a stalemate. Was it the player's offer that put us there or was it Gary's ultimatum? We can discuss that all day. What the ultimatum has done is solidified the players who are now ready to bunker down.

 

[Bates]

I have the Knicks with 3 players making under a million.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I really think Fehr is current problem. Fire Him and get rid of Bettman's style of dication negotiation is wrong. Get rid of him as well.

It's interesting that things were all rosy and optimistic this week until they brought Bettman and Fehr back to the table. Then things fell apart. Their disdain for each other is so strong that it's holding up the process of getting a deal done.

Bettman never did come back to the table, Fehr did.  Process blew up.  What does that tell you?

The process blew up on Tuesday night when the players apparently pissed off the owners with their offer.

It was the $100 mil the owners put on the table for make whole that night or the next morning and according to Daly, the players barely even acknowledged the addition.

You insinuated that the process blew up when Fehr came back to the table. Well, according to Gary, that's not true. The process blew up when the player's made their offer which included the $100million but now 'included' more.

 

[Kin]

I have the Knicks with 3 players making under a million.

The NBA has a scaled minimum salary that corresponds to a player's service time. Kurt Thomas and Rasheed Wallace are both earning the minimum salary for a player with their experience as well.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Lots has been said in the last few days about NBA style salaries where the big guys get all the money and the others settle for the minimum.  Here is the Raptors salaries.  Where are the min guys?


Andrea Bargnani  $10,000,000

Amir Johnson  $6,000,000

Kyle Lowry  $5,750,000

Landry Fields  $5,000,000

Linas Kleiza  $4,600,000

Jonas Valanciunas  $3,374,640

DeMar DeRozan  $3,344,250

Terrence Ross  $2,563,320

Aaron Gray  $2,500,000

Ed Davis  $2,207,040

John Lucas  $1,500,000

Dominic McGuire $992,680

Alan Anderson  $885,120

13 guys vs 23 guys in the NHL? You'd see a much larger variance(I would think) in the NHL.

 

[Bates]

Yeah I feel no pain for a player earning $1.35 million as "minimum wage" 

 

[Bates]

The amount the top player can earn will not change with a 5 year deal.  They can earn a max amount and percent of team payroll.  Oh wait a second you mean the ability to cheat the system by agreeing to a whole bunch of lower salary yaers at end of contract.

 

[Kin]

Yeah I feel no pain for a player earning $1.35 million as "minimum wage"

No one's asking you to. You asked why capping term on contracts is such a big deal to the PA, that's the explanation.

 

[Bates]

But the explanation just does not hold water.  I just looked through all NBA teams and most have 2 players earning under a million.  Some have up to 5 out of 17 earning min.  The average from a guess would be around 3.  If the NHLPA really wants to protect the salaries of 3rd and 4th liners why wouldn't they suggest raising the min wage?  I have not heard that push from them.  This stalemate is about the high enders and for the players to pretend otherwise is a joke.

 

[Bates]

And I asked why it is such a big deal to the PA as a whole and not just the 7% it actually matters to.

 

[Kin]

But the explanation just does not hold water.

It would if you had a better grasp on the fundamental difference between the NBA system and the NHL as it would exist under what the owners are proposing. The NBA's soft cap allows for a team to have several maximum salary guys and be technically at or even above the cap and still sign players to veteran minimum, veteran exception and mid-level exception deals that earn them comfortably above the bare minimum salary. The NHL wouldn't.

If the NHL returned with a 60 million dollar salary cap and a team had three guys making the maximum salary then that would leave the other 20 guys on the team to split the remaining 40% of the cap space available. Again, using a 60 million dollar cap that would work out to 20 guys splitting 24 million dollars in cap space or 1.2 million per guy on average. And that would be a team pressed right up against the upper limit.

 

[Bates]

The problem is that a team can already do that and sign the so-called stars to max deals.  There just aren't that many stars and the league has done a good job of providing all players with a decent salary and not mins.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Don't you mean the 'union' has done a good job of providing players with a decent salary?