2013-2014 NHL Thread

[bustaheims]

Well, not really. I'd say Forbes' estimates, and the way franchise values have skyrocketed in the last 20 years, would point to a pretty healthy percentage of big 4 sports franchises as being pretty solid investments.

The validity of Forbes' estimates aside, most of the teams are still experiencing an increase in value a rate lower (often substantially) than what most of their owners see in their other investments, and, at the same time, those increases in potential value are often outstripped by the teams running at a deficit.

 

[Kin]

The validity of Forbes' estimates aside, most of the teams are still experiencing an increase in value a rate lower (often substantially) than what most of their owners see in their other investments, and, at the same time, those increases in potential value are often outstripped by the teams running at a deficit.

Sure but that's something drastically different. I understand, for instance, why someone would pay 2 billion dollars for the LA Dodgers when they're tremendously profitable even if it's not as profitable as running a hedge fund. That's not the same thing as wondering why someone would pay 250 million dollars for something that loses great sums of money.

 

[bustaheims]

Sure but that's something drastically different. I understand, for instance, why someone would pay 2 billion dollars for the LA Dodgers when they're tremendously profitable even if it's not as profitable as running a hedge fund. That's not the same thing as wondering why someone would pay 250 million dollars for something that loses great sums of money.

Well, like I said before, it's ego. It's rich people buying things they know only rich people can afford to buy. Buying a sports franchise is rarely a rational decision, and, as we see quite frequently, it's one they often come to regret.

 

[Kin]

Well, like I said before, it's ego. It's rich people buying things they know only rich people can afford to buy. Buying a sports franchise is rarely a rational decision, and, as we see quite frequently, it's one they often come to regret.

Yeah, I'd have bought that 15 years ago but after what we've seen re: labour relations over that stretch it's hard for me to buy that too many of these owners are that cavalier with their money. After all, if that were the case, why hit up the taxpayers of Broward County for all those greenbacks?

 

[hockeyfan1]

No Stamkos, no problem.  The Lightning keep chugging along...

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/lightning-tie-for-first-place-after-gutsy-win/

 

[Kin]

The NHL dictionary from DGB over on Grantland. Very much worth a read:

Intense (adj.) ? showing strong emotions and/or passion for the sport of hockey.

Intensz (adj.) ? nice try, Bobby Ryan.

http://grantland.com/features/sean-mcindoe-nhl-grantland-dictionary/

 

[ZBBM]

The NHL dictionary from DGB over on Grantland. Very much worth a read:

Intense (adj.) ? showing strong emotions and/or passion for the sport of hockey.

Intensz (adj.) ? nice try, Bobby Ryan.

http://grantland.com/features/sean-mcindoe-nhl-grantland-dictionary/

"Miracle on Ice" was the best.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Edmonton is probably going to get the next two #1 overalls.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Edmonton is probably going to get the next two #1 overalls.

I'll be furious if they get McDavid.

 

[Tigger]

Yeah, if they get McDavid I'll be a little miffed too.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

This was being discussed on Twitter last night and a bit today by some people I follow, curious as to what people think here.  Do you think the shine has come off Ken Holland in Detroit?

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

This was being discussed on Twitter last night and a bit today by some people I follow, curious as to what people think here.  Do you think the shine has come off Ken Holland in Detroit?

I think so. I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but he's lost some key people from his management team that could probably take a good portion of credit for the work over the years there.

His team is aging, he's lost Lidstrom and few other key players, which is out of his control, but you could probably get a better picture of his drafting record now as opposed to when his teams were stacked.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

This was being discussed on Twitter last night and a bit today by some people I follow, curious as to what people think here.  Do you think the shine has come off Ken Holland in Detroit?

I think so. I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but he's lost some key people from his management team that could probably take a good portion of credit for the work over the years there.

His team is aging, he's lost Lidstrom and few other key players, which is out of his control, but you could probably get a better picture of his drafting record now as opposed to when his teams were stacked.

But his drafting record is what made the team stacked no?

I don't think any of the shine has come off Holland. He's managed a team that has made the playoffs for 22 straight years.

This season he's been dealt a team that has had more significant injuries than the Leafs. I'm not overly impressed with some of the cover ups he attempted this year with the older guys(Alfredsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary..etc.) but noone could of predicted Weiss to be so bad.

Every team is due to, at some point, drop....The most incredible part is that it's taken 22 years and even this year, with a boatload of injuries, they still could be threatening for a 23rd year straight.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

but noone could of predicted Weiss to be so bad.

That's one of the big criticisms of him this season.  You could make the argument that a drop in his production could have been foreseen as Weiss was coming off wrist surgery.  Maybe not so drastically, but still.  Looks even worse now that Fillpula is on pace for over 60 points.

It was these tweets that first got me thinking about it last night:

@bradyfan590 

Cleary, Bertuzzi, M.Samuelsson brought back, Tootoo signing, Colaicaivo signing, Monster. Franzen over Hossa. Gawd.

@bradyfan590 

And Ericsson and Quincey simply can't play. Quincey was traded for a FIRST...

 

[OldTimeHockey]

but noone could of predicted Weiss to be so bad.

That's one of the big criticisms of him this season.  You could make the argument that a drop in his production could have been foreseen as Weiss was coming off wrist surgery.  Maybe not so drastically, but still.  Looks even worse now that Fillpula is on pace for over 60 points.

It was these tweets that first got me thinking about it last night:

@bradyfan590 

Cleary, Bertuzzi, M.Samuelsson brought back, Tootoo signing, Colaicaivo signing, Monster. Franzen over Hossa. Gawd.

@bradyfan590 

And Ericsson and Quincey simply can't play. Quincey was traded for a FIRST...

Yeah as Fillpula continues to shine in Tampa(even without Stamkos), the Weiss signing looks worse and worse.

And I agree with the tweets in that they were bad signings, but like I said, at some point the wheels do have to come off. Having a boatload of injuries and losing a HHOF like Lidstrom should almost guarantee that the wheels should come blowing off. The fact that they're still contending for a playoff spot despite all these issues this year and in the past couple, should be a recognition of Holland's job as a GM in my books.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

They're going to have an issue with Datsyuk/Zetterberg getting older.  Of the past 13 NHL drafts, the Wings have only had a first round pick 5 times, and only Brendan Smith and Jakub Kindl have seen any PP time.

They hit two homeruns with Datsyuk/Zetterberg, and Howard looks to be a very good pick, but I'm not sure where their next wave is going to come from.  Datsyuk will turn 36 this year and Zetterberg will turn 34.

But maybe that's okay with them for a few years.

 

[bustaheims]

But his drafting record is what made the team stacked no?

Not really, no. I mean, yes, the team gets a lot of praise for their drafting, but, it really hasn't been all that great. On top of that, the two guys often brought up as examples of their drafting were taken at a point in the draft where the GM generally doesn't have much influence on who to take or much knowledge on the players available. GMs tend to focus on 1st round pick calibre players and leave the rest to their scouting staff.

Since drafting Datsyuk and Zetterberg, they're mostly come out of the draft with depth types, with a few exceptions - Kronwall, Franzen (who was already 24 when he was drafted) and Howard - and guys that didn't really hit their stride until they landed in other organizations. They are a team that tends to leave their prospects in junior and then the AHL for longer, so, their more recent drafts are harder to judge, but, for the most part, their draft record is pretty, well, average.

 

[Kin]

The fact that they're still contending for a playoff spot despite all these issues this year and in the past couple, should be a recognition of Holland's job as a GM in my books.

Maybe, but I think it's important to say that Holland was probably always a little overrated and given credit for things that, while they certainly went into what produced a championship contender, can't credibly have been attributed to him and any particular genius of his. I know people think of the Datsyuk and Zetterberg picks as being works of genius but the reality there is that for Holland to take guys where he took them means, at best, that he thought they were worth taking a flyer on. Not that he saw something that other people didn't.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

They're going to have an issue with Datsyuk/Zetterberg getting older.  Of the past 13 NHL drafts, the Wings have only had a first round pick 5 times, and only Brendan Smith and Jakub Kindl have seen any PP time.

They hit two homeruns with Datsyuk/Zetterberg, and Howard looks to be a very good pick, but I'm not sure where their next wave is going to come from.  Datsyuk will turn 36 this year and Zetterberg will turn 34.

But maybe that's okay with them for a few years.

Oh I agree...But taking away from a GM's 'shine' because his team has been so good for so long that they haven't had high draft picks is a tad shortsighted no?

And if giving up 8 of those 13(late round) draft picks resulted in 22 straight playoff series, drafting be damned, he's still done his job admirably.(Yes I know that Holland is only in his 17th year as GM. He was assistant GM prior to that).

I get that we can look at him this year and scratch our heads at the moves he made, but I don't think it takes away from any of his and his team's accomplishments starting in the mid 90's.

Like I said, a drop off in production is expected when you've been good for that long.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

They're going to have an issue with Datsyuk/Zetterberg getting older.  Of the past 13 NHL drafts, the Wings have only had a first round pick 5 times, and only Brendan Smith and Jakub Kindl have seen any PP time.

They hit two homeruns with Datsyuk/Zetterberg, and Howard looks to be a very good pick, but I'm not sure where their next wave is going to come from.  Datsyuk will turn 36 this year and Zetterberg will turn 34.

But maybe that's okay with them for a few years.

Oh I agree...But taking away from a GM's 'shine' because his team has been so good for so long that they haven't had high draft picks is a tad shortsighted no?

And if giving up 8 of those 13(late round) draft picks resulted in 22 straight playoff series, drafting be damned, he's still done his job admirably.(Yes I know that Holland is only in his 17th year as GM. He was assistant GM prior to that).

I get that we can look at him this year and scratch our heads at the moves he made, but I don't think it takes away from any of his and his team's accomplishments starting in the mid 90's.

Like I said, a drop off in production is expected when you've been good for that long.

I don't really think trading those picks helped result much in 22 straight playoffs really.  I'm not disagreeing or trying to disparage him for the success he's had.  I just mean in terms of the last handful of seasons has he done a good job of preparing Detroit for the Datsyuk/Zetterberg-less future?  I think a lot of the moves seem suspect.  And again, maybe that's something they're consciously aware of and okay with having some down seasons/high picks.