I get it, but it depends what we're talking about. If there's major apathy toward the team that could hurt the bottom line you probably do have to take that into consideration to some extent. I'm just saying theres a difference between being concerned with the state of the fanbase and allowing them to dictate roster decisions.
2024 Offseason Thread: Changes
- Thread starter herman
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I get it, but it depends what we're talking about. If there's major apathy toward the team that could hurt the bottom line you probably do have to take that into consideration to some extent. I'm just saying theres a difference between being concerned with the state of the fanbase and allowing them to dictate roster decisions.
herman
Well-known member
I think the concern about the fanbase reaction isn?t so much that they care about what the fanbase thinks as armchair GMs, but that their reaction would have a very tangible and likely deleterious effect on Marner?s asset value, be it as a trade chip mid-season or the on-ice performance if we are riding him to UFA.
Really the only way carrying him into the season doesn?t play out contentiously is if Marner signs an 8x8 saying he wants to win with Toronto and wants to give the team the best opportunity to do so. And that?s not happening.
Really the only way carrying him into the season doesn?t play out contentiously is if Marner signs an 8x8 saying he wants to win with Toronto and wants to give the team the best opportunity to do so. And that?s not happening.
Bender and Herman make reasonable points.
But, the folks running the team have some power ?- unfortunately, I don?t see them using at the moment. Like, how about them rally everybody in the organization to defend Marner? Reilly, Matthews, Nylander (already did defend him!), Tavares, Domi, Sundin, Gilmour. Have everybody say: ?Marner is a part of a team. The team wins and loses as a unit. It is not on one guy. I, Auston Matthews, am going to stick with him to the end of the earth. Everybody else get on board.? That should have been coming out of every guy?s mouth the moment the series was over. Make it seem like you have to keep him because he is too good.
Just like anybody including Gretzky, can be traded, I just don?t believe anyone *has* to be traded. Manipulate public opinion! Do that instead of trading him at a disadvantage. And then, sure, if you get a deal that improves the team, trade him and admit you lied later.
But, the folks running the team have some power ?- unfortunately, I don?t see them using at the moment. Like, how about them rally everybody in the organization to defend Marner? Reilly, Matthews, Nylander (already did defend him!), Tavares, Domi, Sundin, Gilmour. Have everybody say: ?Marner is a part of a team. The team wins and loses as a unit. It is not on one guy. I, Auston Matthews, am going to stick with him to the end of the earth. Everybody else get on board.? That should have been coming out of every guy?s mouth the moment the series was over. Make it seem like you have to keep him because he is too good.
Just like anybody including Gretzky, can be traded, I just don?t believe anyone *has* to be traded. Manipulate public opinion! Do that instead of trading him at a disadvantage. And then, sure, if you get a deal that improves the team, trade him and admit you lied later.
herman
Well-known member
princedpw said:
They defend him to the media on the regular and the talking points being so consistent suggests it?s the PR team?s behest. So the front office is already doing that. After all the stuff Marner?s representatives put the team through.
I?m down with gassing him up publicly so some playoff hungry owner sends us a Fantilli or someone like that.
Guilt Trip
Active member
No shock here...
https://twitter.com/Leafslatest/status/1797794640831090870
https://twitter.com/Leafslatest/status/1797794640831090870
herman
Well-known member
Guilt Trip said:
This update literally says there has been no news.
But if we're analyzing the whitespace of an article here, what we're not seeing, that is common in superstar UFA-1 conversations, is a vociferous assurance of the player loving it in this city and playing for this team. If all we're getting is this perfunctory "he will honour his contract", then that's more telling.
Toronto Sun: May 06, 2024 Mitch Marner wants to sign long-term with the Maple Leafs
How many times should he have to say it?
LeBrun provided an update that things have not changed - which is news. Marner's camp is still set on honoring his contract. They still have not provided a trade list nor entertained extension talks and do not seem interested in doing so any time soon. They still seem set on remaining in Toronto to start this season.
Friedman backed Lebrun up on that generally. Friedman added (paraphrased) "It is a very delicate situation ... for the Leafs". He reminded of the Kadri deal.
It is not that delicate for Marner. He just has to honor his contract. If the Leafs say the wrong thing, Marner could be gone for nothing to the UFA market his agent wants for him next summer. Those are the simple facts.
Tkachuk sign and trade happened in July, 2022. A lot easier to do that kind of a deal then.
If Marner goes into the season unsigned (which seems more likely based on the recent reports), how do you move him then? If (big IF) he provides a short destination list, those teams are likely near the cap once the season starts as he's not likely to be into another 8 year rebuild. Are the Leafs going to get something in return for their top playoff scorer that makes them a better team for the '24-25 playoffs? Extremely doubtful from a short trade list - so a trade is likely to damage their playoff aspirations next spring - which Shanahan won't like as his contract expires. If Marner starts the season with the Leafs, it is going to be even harder to move him.
Marner stated that he wanted to remain in Toronto. He shouldn't have to restate that every week. If Marner sticks to his position, next summer, his agent can ask "Do you want Marner to leave as a UFA for nothing or not?" The Leafs will probably want to re-sign him rather than lose him for nothing. If Marner truly wants to remain in Toronto, that might be his best strategy. Actions speak louder than words.
The Tavares signing bonus tax issue might turn that all upside down. That might be what they're waiting to find out. With that lurking, as a player, I wouldn't be in any hurry to sign a big deal until that gets clarified. You also have to wonder about US players taking CDN teams off their acceptable trade list because of that or because they've become aware of significantly higher CDN taxes - which might complicate sign and trade possibilities. In that scenario, Leafs might be lucky to sign any top UFAs.
That was said less than a month ago.
How many times should he have to say it?
LeBrun provided an update that things have not changed - which is news. Marner's camp is still set on honoring his contract. They still have not provided a trade list nor entertained extension talks and do not seem interested in doing so any time soon. They still seem set on remaining in Toronto to start this season.
Friedman backed Lebrun up on that generally. Friedman added (paraphrased) "It is a very delicate situation ... for the Leafs". He reminded of the Kadri deal.
It is not that delicate for Marner. He just has to honor his contract. If the Leafs say the wrong thing, Marner could be gone for nothing to the UFA market his agent wants for him next summer. Those are the simple facts.
Tkachuk sign and trade happened in July, 2022. A lot easier to do that kind of a deal then.
If Marner goes into the season unsigned (which seems more likely based on the recent reports), how do you move him then? If (big IF) he provides a short destination list, those teams are likely near the cap once the season starts as he's not likely to be into another 8 year rebuild. Are the Leafs going to get something in return for their top playoff scorer that makes them a better team for the '24-25 playoffs? Extremely doubtful from a short trade list - so a trade is likely to damage their playoff aspirations next spring - which Shanahan won't like as his contract expires. If Marner starts the season with the Leafs, it is going to be even harder to move him.
Marner stated that he wanted to remain in Toronto. He shouldn't have to restate that every week. If Marner sticks to his position, next summer, his agent can ask "Do you want Marner to leave as a UFA for nothing or not?" The Leafs will probably want to re-sign him rather than lose him for nothing. If Marner truly wants to remain in Toronto, that might be his best strategy. Actions speak louder than words.
The Tavares signing bonus tax issue might turn that all upside down. That might be what they're waiting to find out. With that lurking, as a player, I wouldn't be in any hurry to sign a big deal until that gets clarified. You also have to wonder about US players taking CDN teams off their acceptable trade list because of that or because they've become aware of significantly higher CDN taxes - which might complicate sign and trade possibilities. In that scenario, Leafs might be lucky to sign any top UFAs.
cw said:
I love how the narrative is the Leafs could say the "wrong" thing and Marner could leave. Unless it's "Mitch is the second coming of Christ" it's the wrong thing. Hyperbolic obviously, but with this camp anything could set them off beyond completely caving to their demands.
Bender said:
If he insists on max cap hit x 8 years, they're going to show him the door.
So there are limits.
The minute they go to the guy and say "could we have a list? We'd like to test the waters to see what we could get for you?", they're basically saying "we're not 100% down with keeping you around for our Cup run and we'd like to look at getting something back before you take off .. Your legacy in Toronto, after your 8 years of service is we're dumping you. Don't take it personally - it's all just part of the game"
His agent says to him "Ok, it is crystal clear now. You have to look after you now because after 8 years of service as a top 10 NHL scorer and the team's top playoff scorer, your team is no longer convinced your talents are important enough to have around to build a winner."
I think his agent would be right. And the best move for him would be to test the UFA market and sign with the location that seems like it is best for his hockey career and family, etc.
Everyone knows what is going on. If the Leafs make the slightest move to dump him, he could be gone for nothing.
He can say "Nylander did not extend until Jan 2024 so what's the problem with me taking my time?"
Leafs management can't say much otherwise or he's gone.
They'll never recover his NHL roster talent at the deadline so his departure then would hurt their playoff chances.
Marner is holding most of the cards. That is the way it is. The existing contract they gave him dictates that.
And thank you Dubas for screwing up that negotiation. What a major major should-be-fired type of
deal by KB - not so much the money but the money AND the NTC/NMC.
Of course I felt Burke should have been fired for not lottery protecting the Phil the Thrill deal.
That was something even a rookie GM would have done.
deal by KB - not so much the money but the money AND the NTC/NMC.
Of course I felt Burke should have been fired for not lottery protecting the Phil the Thrill deal.
That was something even a rookie GM would have done.
cw said:
My point is he's gone if he wants to go, end of story, regardless of what the Leafs say. He could already be gone for any reason for all we know, so it's just funny to me that the Leafs could walk on eggshells, roll out the red carpet and Marner could still say nah for any reason. It's his right, and he has a lot of leverage but I think the Leafs can still play some cards here.
Bender said:
Marner has declared he wants to re-sign. He's Toronto born & raised with a wife also from Toronto area along with both their families.
Leafs could play some cards to maybe/hopefully get a hometown discount and re-sign him. Those cards would be ok as they're both working towards extending his time here - that he's said he wants to do.
But playing other cards - like making his life miserable, cutting his ice time/linemates or letting him get roasted in the media - to get him to agree to a trade - that's a dangerous game that they could lose big time. If his buddies on the team see that, it probably won't end well - damaging what has been reported as a pretty good locker room. UFAs will stay away. Hopefully, they don't try to play cards like that.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
cw said:
This is how I feel about it.
Toronto's media is ruthless. It's like water torture and the team would only benefit from trying their best to halt the constant trade rumours. I'm not 100% sure how they achieve that but they could start with a vote of confidence. Yes those votes of confidence are usually a death sentence, but it at least acknowledges the situation and steps in the right direction.