I don't know about "coded messages", but it could have been a combination of things that have been mentioned. For instance, maybe he would have been willing to put up with the Toronto pressure cooker if he felt the core 4 were more committed to doing whatever it takes to win. I know I look at this group and find them lacking at a certain time of year.
Armchair GM Thread 2024-25
- Thread starter herman
- Start date
OldTimeHockey
Active member
You're saying that he left because you find they don't perform in the first round?
Sure if that's what you want to believe
OldTimeHockey
Active member
So what you're telling me is that Ryan O'Reilly, a player regarded by many to be a phenomenal leader and playoff performer, had so little confidence in himself as that leader that he didn't want to play with 3 or 4 of the best players in the league?
You do realize that the year he was here, the team went to the second round only to be eliminated by the Panthers. So, first round theory out. You realize that the season he was here, Marner had 14 points in 11 playoff games, Matthews had 11 points in 11gms, Rielly had 12 pts in 11gms and Nylander had 10 pts in 11gms(All outperforming O'Reilly). I'd say the top players performed just fine.
So, after all that, O'Reilly decided to ditch Toronto to go to Nashville, a team that missed the playoffs in 22/23 because he was worried the top players didn't have what it took in Toronto? At least not enough for him to want to listen to the media that knows about hockey question him? (BTW, that team he joined lost in the first round last season. They were swept. I guess Forsberg and Josi don't have what it takes either).
You do realize that the year he was here, the team went to the second round only to be eliminated by the Panthers. So, first round theory out. You realize that the season he was here, Marner had 14 points in 11 playoff games, Matthews had 11 points in 11gms, Rielly had 12 pts in 11gms and Nylander had 10 pts in 11gms(All outperforming O'Reilly). I'd say the top players performed just fine.
So, after all that, O'Reilly decided to ditch Toronto to go to Nashville, a team that missed the playoffs in 22/23 because he was worried the top players didn't have what it took in Toronto? At least not enough for him to want to listen to the media that knows about hockey question him? (BTW, that team he joined lost in the first round last season. They were swept. I guess Forsberg and Josi don't have what it takes either).
Yeah, they made it out of the first round and then bowed out in 5 in round 2. Great accomplishment. So maybe he saw things in those players (along with the history) and decided being in the Toronto fishbowl wasn't worth it. Only he knows but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
And Forsberg and Josi made it to the finals earlier in their careers. We can talk again when (if) this group ever reaches that level.
And Forsberg and Josi made it to the finals earlier in their careers. We can talk again when (if) this group ever reaches that level.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
We can talk later when you bring a valid point to a discussion.
Mikael Granlund, San Jose, seems like one of the best potential (plausible) pickups for the leafs. 19 pts in 19 games. Trade Kampf and Jarnkrok and we are close to balancing the cap hits. Maybe a little needs to be retained. There’s no reason this lineup should be lacking scoring punch:
Knies - Matthews - Domi
McMann - Granlund - Nylander
Patches - Tavares - Marner
Dewar - Lorentz- X
Knies - Matthews - Domi
McMann - Granlund - Nylander
Patches - Tavares - Marner
Dewar - Lorentz- X
Ozzie
Member
I agree with Chris.
We Leaf fans have very short memories.... but it your remember that Panthers series....it was seen unanimously by Fans, Media (and perhaps even some Players) as being a total let down in effort.
An ass kicking. A Series between Grit v Softness. A face slap by Tkachuk that was responded by sticking out the tongue by Marner.
I think everyone was surprised after they got their first round victory, by the lack of desire thereafter to win.
Thank you for that well thought out, intelligent response. It indicates to me that you've reached the limits of your ability to engage in reasoned discussion. It also indicates that deep down inside you know it's true - that this group of players has never won anything of importance, and has not shown they have the ability to dig deep when it really counts. Whether ROR chose not to re-sign here just because of the Toronto spotlight, or because of a combination of that and the perceived shortcomings of the core group of players, is something we may never know. I wouldn't expect him to come out and say it, but I think it probably played a role. I mean, he's an Ontario-born player who has already won a Cup - he would have been a legend if he came to Toronto and helped this team end the drought. I bet he would have jumped at the chance if he thought the group was worthy.
As a side note, I no longer wonder why this website - for one of the most popular sports franchises on the planet - has so few members who regularly participate in the forums.
Why would San Jose want to make that trade? Why would they want Kampf and Jarnkrok? It makes no sense.
I didn’t mean Kampf/Jarkrok and that’s it for Granlund. The point of mentioning those two is just to illustrate that the cap math could probably work out.
San Jose is a bottom of the league team. I can imagine they’d want to trade Granlumd for younger players and draft picks. I don’t exactly know what they want but it is the kind of team and player that I can imagine gets traded this year to a contender. A first round pick and a prospect and then other throw in stuff perhaps.
IJustLurkHere
Member
We Leafs fans also have selective memories.
That series converted a lot of people who had been fans of Sheldon Keefe's approach of possession hockey and skate the puck zone entries to believe that dump and chase is now necessary to succeed in the playoffs. Painting it as an effort thing - and particularly an effort thing on the part of the core 4 requires ignoring the inability of the D to skate the puck and deal with the Florida forecheck.
My lasting memory is of Leafs defencemen being target practice for Florida forecheckers. Trying to advance the puck, passing back to the defence, who, incapable of skating it, became deer in headlights looking for the next pass. The Leafs didn't have an answer then, and the current roster bears the fingerprints of that series. We've got a coach pushing puck retrieval, we've got a much changed defense - much more suited to chip and battle, AND another puck carrier in OEL.
I certainly don't remember any unanimous decisions that it was lack of effort (though there are always some...). I DO remember there being whispers when ROR left that he hadn't liked the Leafs culture... but he was also a player who was looking to remain a prime time player (and had a great first season in Nashville) as opposed to being a member of the supporting cast, in a media market that often prioritises headlines over accuracy. So all rumours with a grain of salt.
herman
Well-known member
I'm a big fan of what Maurice did with the Panthers. It's all about the type of offense that is translatable in the playoff environment.
Keefe-puck is great for regular season, semi-open hockey, but it gave the Leafs no real tools to use when the checking and the defensive structure tightened up in the spring. I have argued in the past that Keefe-puck actually required way more effort and mental energy: holding onto the puck with control, scanning the defensive structure (while giving it all the time to set up), moving gingerly around the perimeter to probe for openings, coordinating with 4 other individuals against 5 other individuals, passing just right on increasingly choppy ice, and then either resorting to a 90ft wrister from the two worst shooters on the ice OR flubbing a pass high in the OZ for a turnover rush the other way.
The Leafs look a bit more boring now, but it will lead to getting very proficient at a translatable style of offense when defenses are tight. Most goals in the playoffs come from
Keefe-puck is great for regular season, semi-open hockey, but it gave the Leafs no real tools to use when the checking and the defensive structure tightened up in the spring. I have argued in the past that Keefe-puck actually required way more effort and mental energy: holding onto the puck with control, scanning the defensive structure (while giving it all the time to set up), moving gingerly around the perimeter to probe for openings, coordinating with 4 other individuals against 5 other individuals, passing just right on increasingly choppy ice, and then either resorting to a 90ft wrister from the two worst shooters on the ice OR flubbing a pass high in the OZ for a turnover rush the other way.
The Leafs look a bit more boring now, but it will lead to getting very proficient at a translatable style of offense when defenses are tight. Most goals in the playoffs come from
- Rush chances
- Turnovers (which are mini-rush chances)
- Special teams
Ozzie
Member
I agree with your anaysis.... as I posted near the end of the Oilers game thread that I'm getting Florida Panthers vibes from the Leafs now.
But the question is..... is this another instance of delusion thinking somehow "this season is different" and then get totally disappointed in the playoffs?
Based on past years..... Probably Yes.
herman
Well-known member
Previously, "this season is different" was largely driven by some player popping off, and the notion that surely the players have learned their lesson this 7th/8th time, while the strategy remained the same, and praying that one of the other Atlantic teams starts to get too old or too expensive to compete as before.
This season is already different because the coaching staff is asking the same personnel to do different things. And it's not anything more difficult that what they were instructed to do previously. Florida sputtered out of the gate that first year of the coaching change (and big trade), but they've been clicking since that transition settled in. Their playstyle has revitalized (cheap) cast offs in a similar way that Vegas started out doing, so I'm hoping that translates for Berube/Leafs as well*.
* Keefe-puck was the reverse for basically everyone, except for... Bunting, and only when he was with Matthews-Marner.
This might be about as popular as my last suggestion but I'd consider a claim here. With Pacioretty and Jarnkrok out, and guys like Holmberg and Robertson (among others) simply not producing or providing much value anywhere, and also with Reaves guaranteed out for the next 5 games, I think the Leafs are in a position to look at outside options for the bottom-6. Especially RH options.
Guru Tugginmypuddah
Well-known member
I don't know if Kapanen would provide much in the way of scoring.
Though on the positive side, he can skate.
He comes cheap at $1M.
He's probably a better option than any of the Marlies.
He's got almost 500 games of NHL experience.
bustaheims
Well-known member
Might be worth taking a flier on, yeah. Worst case scenario is he ends up right back on waivers. Leafs have a few contract slots available, too. I don't think he'll add much, but, there's no real risk or asset cost here.
Yeah I mean I'm certainly not expecting 20-goal Kapanen anymore. But my general take is that even if we get worse-case scenario with him I'd take a speedster who doesn't provide much beyond that over Holmberg who just doesn't provide much period. His speed could also help improve the Leafs forecheck, which of course is something Berube has talked about recently.
Ozzie
Member
The only determinate will be wins in the post season.
I do get a sense the "System" is different this season.
But we said that in previous seasons with "Playoff Habits", "More Defensive Play" etc....
In the end.... is ownership (Rogers represented by Shanahan) willing to do WHATEVER it takes to win? My answer is NO......nothing has changed in that regard (reasons why for another thread).
In the end....has the Core of this team changed? My answer is NO.... nothing has changed in that regard (no additional threads needed).
So I definitely LOVE this more disciplined low event hockey with less reliant on talent and more reliance on forechecking, backchecking, shot blocks, and team work. I am enjoying this season throughly. Even some of the losses.
But I think my love for this franchise is blind and these positives are blinding me to the other key factors.... ownership/Shanahan and Core members have not changed.
Again...whatever anyone says prior to April doesn't really matter because the proof will be in the post season.... with no excuses like many prior years. Not inexperience, not diarrhea, not Kerry Fraser. It's binary. Only wins will tell.
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