Avalanche @ Leafs - Jan. 14th, 7:00pm - TSN4, Fan 590

[Zee]

Just checking because I don't think anybody brought it up here... but we're all in agreement that Soderberg's SHG that was caused by a Gardiner lost battle was an entirely stoppable shot, right? Blame Jake all you want, but that's a save that Andersen should have easily made.

I mean it was a comedy of errors on that play.  Marner's original giveaway, Jake's "body position" error and sure Andersen could have had it, but he probably wasn't expecting a shot and thought Gardiner would control the puck there.  There's enough blame to go around.

 

[Deebo]

I'm just saying that's where most of this frustration from Leafs fans is coming from.  Sure it's great that they have a good record still and are still on pace for 108 points, but that's dropping fast, they were well ahead of that pace a month ago.  If you're all about trends, the Leafs are trending in the wrong direction and I just hope it doesn't snowball. They should be a lot better than this.

Yup, the record hasn't been good for the last 7 games. But for some reason you frame it like its been 17 games by saying they are 8-7-2 in the last 17.

The first 10 of those 17 were 6-2-2 and the last 7 were 2-5-0 and to me the Islanders and Avalanche games were the ones that stuck out as poor outings. The other 5 were either wins were decent enough performances IMO. But the way things read around here at times would have you believe things are much worse.

 

[Guilt Trip]

The Gardiner goal was brutal.  As for the fans booing him, I guess they can do what they want but it seems many are fed up with his gaffes. I personally don't like it but he did kind of deserve it. That was an awesome display on how not to play D. Marner's giveaway to start the whole thing was brutal to.

 

[Zee]

I'm just saying that's where most of this frustration from Leafs fans is coming from.  Sure it's great that they have a good record still and are still on pace for 108 points, but that's dropping fast, they were well ahead of that pace a month ago.  If you're all about trends, the Leafs are trending in the wrong direction and I just hope it doesn't snowball. They should be a lot better than this.

Yup, the record hasn't been good for the last 7 games. But for some reason you frame it like its been 17 games by saying they are 8-7-2 in the last 17.

The first 10 of those 17 were 6-2-2 and the last 7 were 2-5-0 and to me the Islanders and Avalanche games were the ones that stuck out as poor outings. The other 5 were either wins were decent enough performances IMO. But the way things read around here at times would have you believe things are much worse.

I go back to 17 games because it encompasses their 2 meetings with Boston and 1 with Tampa.  Sure they were 6-2-2 like you said, but 5 of those wins were against not so great teams like Carolina, NJ, Florida, Rangers and Red Wings.  They've lost 2 to Boston, 1 to Tampa and 1 to Nashville, all good teams.  It's a bit concerning.

 

[Deebo]

I'm just saying that's where most of this frustration from Leafs fans is coming from.  Sure it's great that they have a good record still and are still on pace for 108 points, but that's dropping fast, they were well ahead of that pace a month ago.  If you're all about trends, the Leafs are trending in the wrong direction and I just hope it doesn't snowball. They should be a lot better than this.

Yup, the record hasn't been good for the last 7 games. But for some reason you frame it like its been 17 games by saying they are 8-7-2 in the last 17.

The first 10 of those 17 were 6-2-2 and the last 7 were 2-5-0 and to me the Islanders and Avalanche games were the ones that stuck out as poor outings. The other 5 were either wins were decent enough performances IMO. But the way things read around here at times would have you believe things are much worse.

I go back to 17 games because it encompasses their 2 meetings with Boston and 1 with Tampa.  Sure they were 6-2-2 like you said, but 5 of those wins were against not so great teams like Carolina, NJ, Florida, Rangers and Red Wings.  They've lost 2 to Boston, 1 to Tampa and 1 to Nashville, all good teams.  It's a bit concerning.

The tone around here doesn't line up with "a bit concerning", which is the point being made.

 

[Zee]

I'm just saying that's where most of this frustration from Leafs fans is coming from.  Sure it's great that they have a good record still and are still on pace for 108 points, but that's dropping fast, they were well ahead of that pace a month ago.  If you're all about trends, the Leafs are trending in the wrong direction and I just hope it doesn't snowball. They should be a lot better than this.

Yup, the record hasn't been good for the last 7 games. But for some reason you frame it like its been 17 games by saying they are 8-7-2 in the last 17.

The first 10 of those 17 were 6-2-2 and the last 7 were 2-5-0 and to me the Islanders and Avalanche games were the ones that stuck out as poor outings. The other 5 were either wins were decent enough performances IMO. But the way things read around here at times would have you believe things are much worse.

I go back to 17 games because it encompasses their 2 meetings with Boston and 1 with Tampa.  Sure they were 6-2-2 like you said, but 5 of those wins were against not so great teams like Carolina, NJ, Florida, Rangers and Red Wings.  They've lost 2 to Boston, 1 to Tampa and 1 to Nashville, all good teams.  It's a bit concerning.

The tone around here doesn't line up with "a bit concerning", which is the point being made.

Well I'm not of the "fire Babcock, send Gardiner to the moon" club.  I'm just worried that they've looked like garbage against too many teams lately.  I believe it's just a mid-season funk, so I hope they can turn this around soon and solidify that 2nd spot in the division.

 

[Deebo]

Well I'm not of the "fire Babcock, send Gardiner to the moon" club.  I'm just worried that they've looked like garbage against too many teams lately.  I believe it's just a mid-season funk, so I hope they can turn this around soon and solidify that 2nd spot in the division.

I believe LK's post was referring to those types of comments and that's what you responded to so that's the topic at hand. If that's not you, then fine, but that type of reaction is what I was discussing.

 

[TimKerr]

Just checking because I don't think anybody brought it up here... but we're all in agreement that Soderberg's SHG that was caused by a Gardiner lost battle was an entirely stoppable shot, right? Blame Jake all you want, but that's a save that Andersen should have easily made.

100%

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Just checking because I don't think anybody brought it up here... but we're all in agreement that Soderberg's SHG that was caused by a Gardiner lost battle was an entirely stoppable shot, right? Blame Jake all you want, but that's a save that Andersen should have easily made.

100%

I agree, but even with Gardiner out of the equation, how many times can a team look to their goalie and expect him to bail them out. Crap goal, most definitely. But looking at the goalie does not remove any blame to the players on the power play in front of him. Short handed goals should never fall at the feet of the goalie.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/nickdesouza_/status/1085198503171764224

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Nope, both terrible defensive plays that would have had any defensemen I coached sitting on the end of the bench.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Nope, both terrible defensive plays that would have had any defensemen I coached sitting on the end of the bench.

You would have benched Brad Marchand in game 7 of a playoff series? Don't think your NHL coaching career would last very long bud.

 

[TML fan]

Brad Marchand is not a defenceman. He also dove to try and draw a penalty.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Nope, both terrible defensive plays that would have had any defensemen I coached sitting on the end of the bench.

You would have benched Brad Marchand in game 7 of a playoff series? Don't think your NHL coaching career would last very long bud.

I had no idea where the goal came from and judged the plays solely on what I watched in a short clip. I didn't pay attention to the players that made the play and obviously didn't even really look at the big sign in the middle of the ice. But thanks though...I'll surely take the advice of the board mascot in all my coaching decisions going forward. Do you have a direct line I can reach you at...you know when I'm actually coaching hockey?

I get that the Gardiner team of lawyers are trying hard to justify the soft play he made on the goal by referencing a goal that has nothing to do with the one on Monday, but sadly it doesn't remove his glaring error on the play.

 

[herman]

https://theathletic.com/768763/2019/01/15/bourne-what-it-really-means-when-a-coach-says-their-team-is-not-working-hard-enough/

I know this is paywalled but it is truly worth spending one of your freebie articles to read this.

Bourne breaks down what it means for a team to get up for game 45 in the midst of an already successful season against a struggling foe (snooze button morning).

He also highlights why Gardiner and Kadri were victimized on these two goals and it?s really just a small mental detail that he describes far better than I?ve been able to this season. It?s a big reason why Babcock loves Hyman, Brown, Marleau, Johnsson, Lindholm, etc. (I wrote this before I got to the part of the article where Bourne writes exactly this) and with this team?s roster make up, it was always going to be the corner we have to turn going into the final stretch.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I get that the Gardiner team of lawyers are trying hard to justify the soft play he made on the goal by referencing a goal that has nothing to do with the one on Monday, but sadly it doesn't remove his glaring error on the play.

Nobody's justifying it. Nobody has said he didn't make an error. You missed the point of that clip entirely. Jake made a mistake and was beat on that play. But Soderberg also made a great play to use his size and strength to his advantage. Both of those things can be equally true, but as Leafs fan we only ever focus on one side of the equation. I shouldn't even have to explain all that to somebody with 20+ years of coaching experience.

 

[dappleganger]

On the play, Jake tries to push the puck into the corner but the puck jumps his stick. That puts Jake in the wrong position defensively. If Andersen is able to make the save I don't think we're even talking about this. It's ultimately a bad bounce. Shit happens.

Do I like what Jake did on the play? No, I would have preferred he maintained defensive position. I don't think it was a soft play, he made the wrong decision.

 

[herman]

On the play, Jake tries to push the puck into the corner but the puck jumps his stick. That puts Jake in the wrong position defensively. If Andersen is able to make the save I don't think we're even talking about this. It's ultimately a bad bounce. Shit happens.

Do I like what Jake did on the play? No, I would have preferred he maintained defensive position. I don't think it was a soft play, he made the wrong decision.

Yeah it was a bad bounce off his stick that resulted in the turnover. Getting back and establishing body position was very good; the decision to try to immediately turn it up the ice through the middle on his backhand is what exposed Gardiner to Soderberg's extra effort.

I understand why Gardiner did this: he wanted to preserve precious PP time and expedite getting the puck back to the forwards, he's very good at manipulating forecheckers off the puck with his positioning and skating, so he's very confident he could pull it off and they'd catch the PKers on the change. I would've liked him to just shield off Soderberg and steer the play until it was out of the slot, but if I'm the coach I wouldn't ask Jake (or any skilled players) to stop trying to make these plays, just pick more stable spaces to work from.

Andersen relaxed once Jake put Soderberg on his hip, so he was very not ready when the shot materialized.

Here's a 'better' defensieve defenseman:
https://twitter.com/Prospects_Watch/status/1085371943933612033

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/nickdesouza_/status/1085198503171764224

Kapanen is so good on breakways because his acceleration pulls him away from defenders being able to establish effective body position. He doesn't even have to go full speed (which outpaces his hands and brain) because if defenders do catch up, he's very good about blocking their efforts with his rear.

When the Leafs are checking well, it's not the board rattlers or even the actual body contact, it's how they time and target the puckholder's hands with their hips to strip the puck. The reverse is true for when they play heavy and hold the puck well: they use their hips to shield their hands and the puck, using the walls and net to keep the defense reaching (no leverage). Marner's awareness is great helping him adjust position to absorb hits like a Gumby and maintain puck control.

The Leafs overall team speed and skating skill can play Babcock-heavy very well; the only thing missing is staying consistently engaged the whole game, and not cheating on puck battles (stick reaches). It's very fixable.

 

[TML fan]

The stick reaches annoy me to no end. When I say the Leafs are soft, that is exactly what I'm talking about.