Avalanche @ Leafs - Jan. 22nd, 7:00pm - SNO, TSN 1050

[CarltonTheBear]

4th line had a 31% and were on the ice for 2 goals against (neither goal was really the forwards fault specifically). Still, this is a good example to bring up when someone suggests that a 4th line doesn't really matter.

 

[L K]

Another uninspiring man advantage for Marleau. And Matthews with an ugly third period.

Babcock should have called a timeout and gotten the better power play unit out.

Does her ever call timeouts down the stretch?  I don't get it.

He?s just preparing the team for playoff hockey where you don?t get timeouts?

 

[bustaheims]

4th line had a 31% and were on the ice for 2 goals against (neither goal was really the forwards fault specifically). Still, this is a good example to bring up when someone suggests that a 4th line doesn't really matter.

Why they were on the ice with Borgman and Polak on both those goals is a question someone needs to (but won't) ask Babcock. That's a recipe for bad.

 

[Zee]

That called back goal was a complete joke

 

[Strangelove]

4th line had a 31% and were on the ice for 2 goals against (neither goal was really the forwards fault specifically). Still, this is a good example to bring up when someone suggests that a 4th line doesn't really matter.

Why they were on the ice with Borgman and Polak on both those goals is a question someone needs to (but won't) ask Babcock. That's a recipe for bad.

Babcock more or less completely ignores what is actually happening on the ice and just plays the match up he wants. For some reason he has it in his head that the third pairing plays with the fourth line so that?s what we get.

Regardless of how badly it worked out tonight, we?ll probably see it again next game because that?s how Mike rolls.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Also the JVR-Bozak-Brown line goes from a brutal game together to a dominant one: 80% CF tonight. JVR was on the ice for just 3 shot attempts against, Bozak and Brown 4. It's really too bad we couldn't get a goal from them.

 

[ZBBM]

Also the JVR-Bozak-Brown line goes from a brutal game together to a dominant one: 80% CF tonight. JVR was on the ice for just 3 shot attempts against, Bozak and Brown 4. It's really too bad we couldn't get a goal from them.

Of all the recent losses, this one upsets me the least.  Except the atrocious 5/3.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Of all the recent losses, this one upsets me the least.  Except the atrocious 5/3.

Yeah, this was a good game. The Leafs top-9 all performed very well. The 5-man shutdown unit kept the MacKinnon line in-check and off the scoresheet (except for the empty-netter), the Matthews line was flying, and the Bozak line and the Dermott-Carrick pairing dominated their shot-shares and kept the puck in the offensive zone for most of their time on the ice. It was the bottom of the line-up that literally cost the team the win. That's disappointing because it's such an easy position on the team to upgrade.

 

[ZBBM]

Of all the recent losses, this one upsets me the least.  Except the atrocious 5/3.

Yeah, this was a good game. The Leafs top-9 all performed very well. The 5-man shutdown unit kept the MacKinnon line in-check and off the scoresheet (except for the empty-netter), the Matthews line was flying, and the Bozak line and the Dermott-Carrick pairing dominated their shot-shares and kept the puck in the offensive zone for most of their time on the ice. It was the bottom of the line-up that literally cost the team the win. That's disappointing because it's such an easy position on the team to upgrade.

Bang on, all round.  I am thoroughly convinced that, at this point in the season, Babcock is not primarily interested in winning night in and night out so long as they eke out enough points.  He knows the Leafs have an easy glide to the playoffs in the division this year. 

As revealed now, he wants to belicheck the Leafs into a dynasty team.  Admirable, but at some point you have to let Matthews be Tom Brady and make him your go-to guy when the game is on the line.  At least he got him and his line out there tonight with 1:49 left.  I still think he should call more timeouts in those situations.

 

[dappleganger]

https://twitter.com/dalter/status/955625939320430592

Three guys walk into an arena...
[/quote

Apparently that was Tim Cook. He is in town.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/apple-ceo-tim-cook-surprises-toronto-students-in-first-canada-visit/article37681868/

 

[herman]

It was the bottom of the line-up that literally cost the team the win. That's disappointing because it's such an easy position on the team to upgrade.

I've been mulling this, obviously, and harping on it a bit in previous seasons.

While I would love to have speed all the way through the lineup, and players that don't handle the puck like live grenades all the time, at this point, I don't think the Leafs see enough value in spending to upgrade the bottom, or at the minimum turning over assets to do so.

Parts to upgrade: Martin, Komarov, Polak, Gauthier/Moore
Internally, we already have players better than them, except for Gauthier/Moore, which is a bit of a black hole unless you really lean into playing the 4th line offensively and just take your chances without a 'shutdown' safety net. All the upgrades are currently better served playing key minutes with the Marlies and gunning for a championship down there, even though they are clearly NHL-caliber players, simply because the 4th line 10 minutes are not developmentally helpful.

Reactionary internal upgrades also means trading those players above for the sake of space, rather than because there is a reasonable return. Coupled with these upgrade players getting bum minutes (most likely) and losing assets for nothing, there's a bit more value in riding them out until closer to the deadline to see what other teams are after.

At the deadline though, if anything north of a 4 rder is in the conversation, I will be happy to take that addition by subtraction on those above players, and liquidating Bozak and JvR as well to form the basis of upgrade trades at C and maybe D. I'm pretty comfortable with Dermott playing bottom-4 minutes, so our focus really should be on getting a speedy centre (or two) with a defensive pedigree. It'd be nice to see the Front Office move a bit more ruthlessly.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Another uninspiring man advantage for Marleau. And Matthews with an ugly third period.

Babcock should have called a timeout and gotten the better power play unit out.

Matthews cost them the game

Seriously? Where was Dermott going? Dermott stays where he's supposed to be and it's a non issue. That's why Matthews let up because Dermott was there but then for whatever reason decided to go help check the covered man..Weird..
How about Marner on the Borg cough up? Nice effort.

 

[Hobbes]

...For some reason he has it in his head that the third pairing plays with the fourth line so that?s what we get.

The problem is if you roll out the top pair or 2nd pair, you know the next guys coming over the boards are the other team's top line and you don't want you best pairing gassed. If the bottom pair sucks, get a better bottom pair. If the bottom line sucks, get a better bottom line. Both sides typically do the same thing so mostly it's whether your crappiest players are better or worse than the other team's crappiest players.

And in this game, Marner was playing on the 4th line for much of the night and they were 31%. I get that Martin isn't the best player in the universe but he didn't seem to be all that much of an issue last night.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Voluntarily putting Gauthier and Polak out against the MacKinnon line, good coaching.

I know I'm responding to a post from about 10 pages ago, but I often watch the game in non-realtime (getting daughter to bed etc) and like reading this thread the next day.

Anyways:  I'm not sure what else you expect after 2.5 mins of Leafs power play:

1.  Avs are going to put their top line out, as they've been off the ice for most of the PK (except Landeskog, who gets spot duty)
2.  8 of our forwards have just split the last 2.5 mins of ice-time, with Gauthier, Hyman, Komarov, and Martin the freshest bodies on forward.  PP ends and almost always the line of the 3 former players comes out. 
3.  Usually your two offensive D-men have also just been on the PP (Gardiner and Rielly/Carrick).  Hainsey for sure is gonna be on after the PP ends... but I do think Polak is a terrible choice to join him.  Should have been Dermott.

 

[wnc096]

Another uninspiring man advantage for Marleau. And Matthews with an ugly third period.

Babcock should have called a timeout and gotten the better power play unit out.

Matthews cost them the game

Seriously? Where was Dermott going? Dermott stays where he's supposed to be and it's a non issue. That's why Matthews let up because Dermott was there but then for whatever reason decided to go help check the covered man..Weird..
How about Marner on the Borg cough up? Nice effort.

Its the hyperbole of whats kosher other players.  if that was Komarov or Martin on that back-check instead of Matthews, they would be getting lambasted

 

[Guilt Trip]

Another uninspiring man advantage for Marleau. And Matthews with an ugly third period.

Babcock should have called a timeout and gotten the better power play unit out.

Matthews cost them the game

Seriously? Where was Dermott going? Dermott stays where he's supposed to be and it's a non issue. That's why Matthews let up because Dermott was there but then for whatever reason decided to go help check the covered man..Weird..
How about Marner on the Borg cough up? Nice effort.

if that was Komarov or Martin on that back-check instead of Matthews, they would be getting lambasted

Maybe with you but not me. I was simply responding to the line that Matthews cost us the game. That simply isn't true. Could Matthews have kept going? Sure, but there was no need with Dermott there.

 

[Bullfrog]

...

Parts to upgrade: Martin, Komarov, Polak, Gauthier/Moore
Internally, we already have players better than them, except for Gauthier/Moore, which is a bit of a black hole unless you really lean into playing the 4th line offensively and just take your chances without a 'shutdown' safety net. All the upgrades are currently better served playing key minutes with the Marlies and gunning for a championship down there, even though they are clearly NHL-caliber players, simply because the 4th line 10 minutes are not developmentally helpful.

...

That's based on a false premise though, that a non-offensive line is somehow good in a shutdown role. I mean, it could be true, but there's no correlation between being good on offense and bad on defense. No true shutdown line has Matt Martin on it.

 

[herman]

...

Parts to upgrade: Martin, Komarov, Polak, Gauthier/Moore
Internally, we already have players better than them, except for Gauthier/Moore, which is a bit of a black hole unless you really lean into playing the 4th line offensively and just take your chances without a 'shutdown' safety net. All the upgrades are currently better served playing key minutes with the Marlies and gunning for a championship down there, even though they are clearly NHL-caliber players, simply because the 4th line 10 minutes are not developmentally helpful.

...

That's based on a false premise though, that a non-offensive line is somehow good in a shutdown role. I mean, it could be true, but there's no correlation between being good on offense and bad on defense. No true shutdown line has Matt Martin on it.

I agree with you that a zero-offense line, regardless of their defensive ability, is just asking for trouble and it's a problem I've wondered about in previous seasons, and basically at the advent of Martin on our lineup.

All I'm saying is that the cost to nominally upgrade the dregs of our lineup is higher than the benefit it would yield. Hockey is still a strong-link game, so the deltas between this 4th line and a differently composed one but built on the same Babcock premise of minimal event hockey, is not going to be meaningful enough to spend on.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Hockey is still a strong-link game, so the deltas between this 4th line and a differently composed one but built on the same Babcock premise of minimal event hockey, is not going to be meaningful enough to spend on.

I don't understand what you mean by having to "spend" to get a better 4th line. We already have Moore-Marner/Brown. Add any of Leivo/Kapanen/Soshnikov once he gets healthy (), and you're there. An upgrade on Moore would be ok but he's a perfectly capable 4C.

I don't even think our 4th line of Martin-Moore-whoever was that much of a problem prior to Gauthier coming in. It was scoring at a reasonable rate and keeping the shot-shares close. The Goat really tanked it.

 

[Bullfrog]

...

Parts to upgrade: Martin, Komarov, Polak, Gauthier/Moore
Internally, we already have players better than them, except for Gauthier/Moore, which is a bit of a black hole unless you really lean into playing the 4th line offensively and just take your chances without a 'shutdown' safety net. All the upgrades are currently better served playing key minutes with the Marlies and gunning for a championship down there, even though they are clearly NHL-caliber players, simply because the 4th line 10 minutes are not developmentally helpful.

...

That's based on a false premise though, that a non-offensive line is somehow good in a shutdown role. I mean, it could be true, but there's no correlation between being good on offense and bad on defense. No true shutdown line has Matt Martin on it.

I agree with you that a zero-offense line, regardless of their defensive ability, is just asking for trouble and it's a problem I've wondered about in previous seasons, and basically at the advent of Martin on our lineup.

All I'm saying is that the cost to nominally upgrade the dregs of our lineup is higher than the benefit it would yield. Hockey is still a strong-link game, so the deltas between this 4th line and a differently composed one but built on the same Babcock premise of minimal event hockey, is not going to be meaningful enough to spend on.

I agree with you there, but I also agree with CtB's follow-up. The cost is nothing at this point. Last night wasn't a minimal event experience for the 4th line.