Bozak Signs 5 Years - $21 Million

[Kin]

Well the fact in the article is that statistically, Kessel scores more when not playing with Bozak, Poullin seems to imply otherwise.

Well, one, an implication isn't a statement. Implying something untrue isn't better I suppose but there's no factual error here. What Poulin said is:

Rather than even focus on the actual numbers of Tyler Bozak, I?d look at the numbers of Phil Kessel while he?s playing with Tyler Bozak. I believe it?s only three or four players who have scored more goals than him in the last five years in the league. You?ll have to dig that one up to see if that is in fact what the stat is.  He?s produced at a high rate, but there?s been so much focus on that [number one center] position.

All he says is that while playing with Tyler Bozak, Phil Kessel has produced at a really, really good rate. You're right, he does attribute that in part to Bozak but he doesn't say "Phil Kessel scores better with Bozak". I know it's an argument that Bozak detractors don't like but the argument here is just that the Bozak-Kessel combination has been an effective one and that Bozak contributes to that in ways that maybe don't show up on the score sheet.

As for the specifics, this is the chart from that article I'm referring to:

Now, I could be dead wrong about this but doesn't that say Kessel scores more with Bozak than without?

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

You're right in this specific image, points.

Three images, first one shows Kessel scores more goals without Bozak and Bozak's offence just disappears without Phil.

Second image, the one you referred to, shows total points and Kessel's pts do come down slightly as he gets slightly fewer assists without Bozak.

Third image shows opposition goals when Bozak and Kessel play together, that and the goal scoring one are damning for Tyler imo. Opposition scores more when Phil and Tyler are together, they score way more when Tyler is without Phil, but score less when Phil is without Tyler and that's the only time we out score the opposition per 60.

Tyler Bozak has 8 career points playing without Phil Kessel.

 

[Kin]

So....just so I have this entirely right that blog post whose title begins with "Leafs VP states incorrect fact about Tyler Bozak" is about Poulin implying something that's technically true?

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

So....just so I have this entirely right that blog post whose title begins with "Leafs VP states incorrect fact about Tyler Bozak" is about Poulin implying something that's technically true?

Poulin says:

Rather than even focus on the actual numbers of Tyler Bozak, I?d look at the numbers of Phil Kessel while he?s playing with Tyler Bozak. I believe it?s only three or four players who have scored more goals than him in the last five years in the league. You?ll have to dig that one up to see if that is in fact what the stat is.

He's talking about goal scoring and linking it to Kessel playing with Bozak.

Statistically Phil scores more goals when not playing with Tyler.

Seems pretty simple really...

 

[Kin]

Seems pretty simple really...

It does. Poulin's comments seem very simply to be saying that Kessel has produced terrifically with Tyler Bozak as his centre, something undeniably true. He very specifically does not say anything about Kessel's play with anyone else.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Seems pretty simple really...

It does. Poulin's comments seem very simply to be saying that Kessel has produced terrifically with Tyler Bozak as his centre, something undeniably true.

;D Have a good one sir.

 

[Kin]

I mean, I guess I'm the crazy one where I think that a blog post that jumps on a guy for making an erroneous statement of fact should actually contain him making an erroneous statement of fact? Not just an implication that could be considered incorrect if you infer something very specific and then measure that something specific in one particular way? A particular way that rated Artem Anisimov, Brendan Gallagher and Antoine Roussel as more effective goal scorers than Steven Stamkos, Phil Kessel and Alex Ovechkin last year?

Alright...

 

[Corn Flake]

Now, I could be dead wrong about this but doesn't that say Kessel scores more with Bozak than without?

You are absolutely right and I'm perplexed at why the counter argument is being made. 

I mean, I guess I'm the crazy one where I think that a blog post that jumps on a guy for making an erroneous statement of fact should actually contain him making an erroneous statement of fact?

I have read/put up with a lot of these bloggers who are overly critical of the Leafs, Nonis, Carlyle and Bozak and the reaching done to justify the criticism is pretty goofy.  The simple chart noted here clearly shows Kessel produces more with Bozak.  "oh but look how Bozak produces way less without Kessel!""  Well, duh.  Who would? 

Would Backstrom produce the same or less without Ovechkin?  I don't even have to look up the numbers.  Hundreds cases of a legit top line player carrying his linemates over the years.  Jonas Hoglund, anyone?

I mean I'm not a big Bozak fan but the chemistry is there and simply put, Kessel is happy and produces like a mad man and Bozak has been his centre for most of that time. 

 

[Kin]

The simple chart noted here clearly shows Kessel produces more with Bozak.  "oh but look how Bozak produces way less without Kessel!""  Well, duh.  Who would? 

Well that's the other thing I think is if not misleading then at the very least would require more clarification to make this a fair discussion. I don't know where they're getting their line information but the information I have regarding Bozak's ice time has him just about joined at Kessel's hip. Like, the kind of numbers I'm looking at has Bozak not even playing 5% of his minutes with any single line over the last three years that doesn't have Kessel on it.

So, and I know the people who run down Bozak only believe in "chemistry" as a quantifiable notion with specific outputs, it seems to me that even ignoring the fact that Bozak - Kessel is probably being used in a very different role he's definitely not getting enough time to develop any sort of relationship or familiarity with other guys. I suspect that a lot of his even strength time without Kessel is, like, the 62 minutes over the last 3 years Kessel's spent in the penalty box or when he misses a shift with a sore wrist or in OT or something.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Now, I could be dead wrong about this but doesn't that say Kessel scores more with Bozak than without?

You are absolutely right and I'm perplexed at why the counter argument is being made. 

It says he scores less.

 

[Kin]

It says he scores less.

You know, they give the Art Ross trophy to the guy who leads the league every year in scoring.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Probably why they have the good sense to say "scoring points" and not just scoring.

 

[Kin]

Probably why they have the good sense to say "scoring points" and not just scoring.

And probably why they also have the good sense not to use the word "scoring" at all for the Richard.