Bruins vs. Leafs - Nov. 11th, 7:00pm - TSN4

[Joe S.]

No doubt about it: Treliving has assembled the DNA from a team that was 8th in GAA last season to a team with the worst GAA in the league this year!!!

Well to be fair, it does seem like Stolarz’s play covered that up last season. His play, honestly, reminds me of the drop off between samsonov’s first season to his second.

But I think this is a ‘blip’. I think Stolarz is better than this and will eventually rebound. The rest of the team, however, hasn’t shown that they’re capable of much more than not giving a shit about much of anything.

 

[Joe S.]

Shanny panicked after canning Dubas. Tulsky was the guy to get if you were going to make a change.

And that’s the thing, I don’t think they needed to make the change. I believe Dubas was willing to make drastic changes to the team. But Shanahan wasn’t willing to relinquish any power.

Dubas wasn’t perfect, no GM is, but he was a smart guy who, for the most part, made moves that made sense.

People forget that a lot of the moves he made were to undo the dumbass moves that Lamoriello made. Dubas didn’t start the ‘go for the cup early’ cycle, Lamoriello did, and Shanahan.

 

[Guilt Trip]

And that’s the thing, I don’t think they needed to make the change. I believe Dubas was willing to make drastic changes to the team. But Shanahan wasn’t willing to relinquish any power.

Dubas wasn’t perfect, no GM is, but he was a smart guy who, for the most part, made moves that made sense.

People forget that a lot of the moves he made were to undo the dumbass moves that Lamoriello made. Dubas didn’t start the ‘go for the cup early’ cycle, Lamoriello did, and Shanahan.

I wasn't a fan of the Dubas firing. It would have been very interesting to see what he would have done if given the op.
And you're absolutely right. Lou and Shanny decided to go for it first when they should have been selling off UFAs like Bozak, JVR, uncle Leo. Instead he traded 2nds for Boyle and Plekanec. Problem really was that the kids were too good and have made the playoffs ever since finishing last to get Matthews.

 

[ZBBM]

Berube's post-game comments were kind of like, oh we just need to clean up some things and I liked how we competed. ?

I didn't see the game.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Berube's post-game comments were kind of like, oh we just need to clean up some things and I liked how we competed. ?

I didn't see the game.

Domi said it was part of the game when asked about his penalty with Zadorov. He's as dumb as his father.

 

[cw]

And that’s the thing, I don’t think they needed to make the change. I believe Dubas was willing to make drastic changes to the team. But Shanahan wasn’t willing to relinquish any power.

Dubas wasn’t perfect, no GM is, but he was a smart guy who, for the most part, made moves that made sense.

People forget that a lot of the moves he made were to undo the dumbass moves that Lamoriello made. Dubas didn’t start the ‘go for the cup early’ cycle, Lamoriello did, and Shanahan.

I think ownership (& the media) placed tremendous pressure on Dubas to win. That resulted in him trading away young assets too soon and doing dumb deals like Marleau. As they started to peak with Matthews-Marner, the cupboard got close to bare which also put pressure on their cap. No matter what Treliving did last summer, they were on the downside of this group - cap constrained with little youth. Smarter GMs without ownership pressuring shortsighted moves, roll the roster over to sustain it - like the Wings did and the Wings were smart enough to hold off on bringing up for example, Kronwall too soon and got better price performance from their talent. We on the other hand go nuts giving Knies lots of top line ice time to rack up points so that we can pay him top buck on his first deal after entry. The team has been mismanaged. Hiring Treliving who has never won a thing in his life is the icing on that cake.

 

[cw]

They're now in 26th place with the worst GAA in the league.
I realize they are not far out of a playoff spot and they will probably find a way to improve from being one of the worst teams in the league. They're not playing up to the talent on their roster. I guessed they would be around a 10th place team.
But the objective is to win a Cup. This team looks a lot closer to a team who will fight for a playoff berth rather than a team who is going to have a parade. The window on this older, injury prone roster seems almost closed.
They have had poor starts before but this one has a different feel to it. It feels like there is something gravely wrong with this team.
Maybe a coaching change could help them but I haven't minded Berube. I'm not sure he's the best coach but he seems like he is not an awful one.
Maybe they all know Matthews is chronically injured and they're rudderless without him & Marner.
I was hoping they would get a couple of more runs. As a Leafs fan, I still hope for that but it seems unrealistic.

 

[Bill_Berg]

They're now in 26th place with the worst GAA in the league.
I realize they are not far out of a playoff spot and they will probably find a way to improve from being one of the worst teams in the league. They're not playing up to the talent on their roster. I guessed they would be around a 10th place team.
But the objective is to win a Cup. This team looks a lot closer to a team who will fight for a playoff berth rather than a team who is going to have a parade. The window on this older, injury prone roster seems almost closed.
They have had poor starts before but this one has a different feel to it. It feels like there is something gravely wrong with this team.
Maybe a coaching change could help them but I haven't minded Berube. I'm not sure he's the best coach but he seems like he is not an awful one.
Maybe they all know Matthews is chronically injured and they're rudderless without him & Marner.
I was hoping they would get a couple of more runs. As a Leafs fan, I still hope for that but it seems unrealistic.

Yeah I have similar fears. And if the peak is past, we're looking at two or three years of middling teams before a long rebuild. What a waste.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I wasn't a fan of the Dubas firing. It would have been very interesting to see what he would have done if given the op.
And you're absolutely right. Lou and Shanny decided to go for it first when they should have been selling off UFAs like Bozak, JVR, uncle Leo. Instead he traded 2nds for Boyle and Plekanec. Problem really was that the kids were too good and have made the playoffs ever since finishing last to get Matthews.

A big part of the issue in firing Dubas is that it (1) seemed like a rash decision and (2) there was no in depth GM search undertaken to find the best candidate.

 

[Joe S.]

I think ownership (& the media) placed tremendous pressure on Dubas to win. That resulted in him trading away young assets too soon and doing dumb deals like Marleau. As they started to peak with Matthews-Marner, the cupboard got close to bare which also put pressure on their cap. No matter what Treliving did last summer, they were on the downside of this group - cap constrained with little youth. Smarter GMs without ownership pressuring shortsighted moves, roll the roster over to sustain it - like the Wings did and the Wings were smart enough to hold off on bringing up for example, Kronwall too soon and got better price performance from their talent. We on the other hand go nuts giving Knies lots of top line ice time to rack up points so that we can pay him top buck on his first deal after entry. The team has been mismanaged. Hiring Treliving who has never won a thing in his life is the icing on that cake.

I don’t mean to nitpick, but Dubas didn’t sign Marleau, Lamoriello did.

 

[cw]

I don’t mean to nitpick, but Dubas didn’t sign Marleau, Lamoriello did.

But he traded a first away to unload him

 

[Joe S.]

But he traded a first away to unload him

Yes. Like I said - he had to undo the dumb moves Lamoriello made.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

That may have been the most frustrating game to watch.

• 1 shot in the first 10 minutes of the game. That listless play is probably the most concerning thing for me.
• The Leafs pick up some momentum in the first after killing off 47 penalties, only to be followed by a shift of getting stuck in their own zone with half assed clearing attempts and another horrible goal against Stolarz.
• New goalie goes in to start the second and his first shot on goal is a 2 on 1. His second shot on goal is a breakaway. Both defense standing beside eachother on the blueline. We can point at the goalies all we want, this is not a team supporting their goalie. Especially a rookie goalie.
• Multiple 2 on 1's in the 2nd period. Defense getting caught level and wide. Forwards not supporting each other on defensive side of puck. So many Hockey 101 things not being done. This is basic stuff.
  • Defense need to hinge
  • Forwards need to be on right side of puck
  • F3 has to play high to take away speed exits/stretch passes

If I'm coaching this team, I go one of two ways. I bench or demote my "top players" (Knies, Matthews, Nylander, Rielly), or I just put my hands up and let them play a couple games exactly how they want. I get out of their ears and just let them play. Without being part of the room, it's tough to say which direction is the proper one to choose.

It says a lot when the player they talked about trading or releasing (Robertson), is now one of your top 3 forwards. It's also very concerning when the other two top forwards are Tavares and McMann. I'd be reassembling that line immediately.

 

[4EVRLEAFAN]

I find myself in a very strange situation, I wanted this team burned down 3 years ago, when people defended Matthews I said no he should be the first to go, but they didn't and here we are, and for some reason I find myself pulling for them this year...lol Why? I look at the last 3 games and while yes we're coming out slow again and our defensive play has been horrible but if Stolie was himself I think we win 2 of those games maybe even all 3, I know it's not all on him not even close, but there were some very bad goals in there, lets see what happens when Woll gets back, fingers crossed...lol

 

[dappleganger]

I’d take Bruce Boudreau at this point. Or a hologram of pat quinn.

If you wanted someone who'd be kinda the opposite of Berube, he'd be your guy.

 

[dappleganger]

Keefe was the right coach for this team. They just needed to shore up the D and goalies like they had last year. They were set in making a change and they should have hired coach Q. That was the guy to hire.

I'd argue Berube had this team playing exactly the right way to beat Florida and win the cup. I think the mental fortitude of the players is what led to their demise.

It's possible Berube's style of play is "too hard" for them to play this early in the season when it's obvious the intensity isn't there.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'd argue Berube had this team playing exactly the right way to beat Florida and win the cup. I think the mental fortitude of the players is what led to their demise.

It's possible Berube's style of play is "too hard" for them to play this early in the season when it's obvious the intensity isn't there.

Completely disagree. They never controlled play vs Florida and largely haven’t since Berube was hired. Can say all you want about grit and toughness, but it is basically impossible to win the Cup without being one of the top teams at controlling the play. Scoring chances at 5v5 in that series last year were 204-126 for Florida. Shots were 177-140. Shot attempts were 447-286. I’m sorry, that’s not a recipe to beat Florida unless the recipe is hold on for dear life and hope your goalie steals the series.

 

[L K]

But he traded a first away to unload him

I think the important thing here is that he didn't HAVE to trade the first to unload him. He chose to do that because he had the team up against the cap. The Leafs could have used that year to take a half step back and wait out his contract.

The Leafs have thrown their first round picks around like candy in the Shanaplan era.

Traded first round picks for Scott Laughton, Brandon Carlo, Jake McCabe, unloading Petr Mrazek's contract, Ryan O'Reilly, Nick Foligno, unloading Patrick Marleau's contract

It has been terrible asset management over and over again at the deadline. We pay a premium for mediocre depth players or give up high picks to get out from previously signed bad contracts.

 

[Guilt Trip]

That may have been the most frustrating game to watch.

• 1 shot in the first 10 minutes of the game. That listless play is probably the most concerning thing for me.
• The Leafs pick up some momentum in the first after killing off 47 penalties, only to be followed by a shift of getting stuck in their own zone with half assed clearing attempts and another horrible goal against Stolarz.
• New goalie goes in to start the second and his first shot on goal is a 2 on 1. His second shot on goal is a breakaway. Both defense standing beside eachother on the blueline. We can point at the goalies all we want, this is not a team supporting their goalie. Especially a rookie goalie.
• Multiple 2 on 1's in the 2nd period. Defense getting caught level and wide. Forwards not supporting each other on defensive side of puck. So many Hockey 101 things not being done. This is basic stuff.
  • Defense need to hinge
  • Forwards need to be on right side of puck
  • F3 has to play high to take away speed exits/stretch passes

If I'm coaching this team, I go one of two ways. I bench or demote my "top players" (Knies, Matthews, Nylander, Rielly), or I just put my hands up and let them play a couple games exactly how they want. I get out of their ears and just let them play. Without being part of the room, it's tough to say which direction is the proper one to choose.

It says a lot when the player they talked about trading or releasing (Robertson), is now one of your top 3 forwards. It's also very concerning when the other two top forwards are Tavares and McMann. I'd be reassembling that line immediately.

Berube will not bench or demote his stars. He would have done it already.
As much as the overall team D has sucked, so has Stolarz. He's been terrible this season and has probably let in more softies this year then he did all of last year. Woll being out certainly didn't help.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Berube will not bench or demote his stars. He would have done it already.
As much as the overall team D has sucked, so has Stolarz. He's been terrible this season and has probably let in more softies this year then he did all of last year. Woll being out certainly didn't help.

I don't disagree with you. On either statement.

The thing with Stolarz is he's not bailing them out of the gaffes. For instance, that 5 hole goal last night. The Leafs had the puck on their stick numerous times with easy plays to move the puck up the ice and just didn't. So, Stolarz certainly should have stopped that shot, and probably does 99% of the time....But Carlos, Nylander, Tavares, etc have to be way better with the puck. I mean, watch right before Steen scores. Tavares first picks the wrong side of the puck (instead of containing, he guessed), and then when Steen turns back towards the net Tavares decides he's done defending the guy with the puck and wanders off somewhere else. You're the centreman John. Your job is to be the 3rd defender in the offensive zone. If your D are playing zone and boxing out, your job (once you guessed wrong earlier), is to track and recover. Not turn and peel off. Seriously. This is atom/peewee level hockey teachings.