Fighting in NHL

[Bill_Berg]

I can see stiffer penalties, such as suspensions for multiple fights in a game, or over a season, but I would be surprised if the spur of the moment fights are pushed out completely anytime soon.

 

[Kin]

To ban fighting in hockey,I think you would have to ban hitting as well.It's the hitting that stirs up emotions to have a fight.

Hockey does not have some sort of monopoly on being a physical sport or one where emotions run high. If you're a basketball player and an opposing defender knocks your star player down with a flagrant foul, wouldn't that kick up the same response? If you play baseball do you think a pitcher whizzing a 95 mph fastball by your ear doesn't make you mad? How about a late hit on your quarterback?

Every one of those sports has managed to retain the elements that stir up emotion without saying "Yeah, you know, throwing punches at each other is part of the game".

 

[Captain Canuck]

Fighting will never be completely eliminated. People fight in rec hockey. I think what we might see is a gradual elimination of the staged fight and the traditional enforcer role, but fighting will always have its place in the game. The game lends itself to that reality. All they can really do is reduce its frequency.

That's true to a sense. Guys throw punches in baseball, basketball and football so those sports haven't "eliminated" fighting either. It's just that they penalize them appropriately.

Yup.  This exactly.  You'll never "ban" fighting.  But the penalty for doing it will be much stiffer.

It just seems like fighting is so ingrained into hockey that it's part of the game. Yes there is the occasional fight in the other 3 pro sports, but in those it just seems like a freak event whereas in hockey it feels more routine to me.
If you want to get rid of fighting in hockey the penalty has to be more than 5 minutes. Think about it, that's like an inning of baseball, or less than half a quarter of a football or basketball game!
In order for the NHL to show its serious about eliminating fighting in hockey they have to start with progressive disciplinary actions based on missing full games...5 minutes is a joke!

 

[losveratos]

To ban fighting in hockey,I think you would have to ban hitting as well.It's the hitting that stirs up emotions to have a fight.

Hockey does not have some sort of monopoly on being a physical sport or one where emotions run high. If you're a basketball player and an opposing defender knocks your star player down with a flagrant foul, wouldn't that kick up the same response? If you play baseball do you think a pitcher whizzing a 95 mph fastball by your ear doesn't make you mad? How about a late hit on your quarterback?

Every one of those sports has managed to retain the elements that stir up emotion without saying "Yeah, you know, throwing punches at each other is part of the game".

The difference is huge between hitting and your example. For one, all of those things you listed are either incredibly rare compared to hits in hockey or are actually illegal. Those players have a right to be pissed off but since it doesn't happen consistently over a couple hours you can handle it better.

I'll give you what I think is a closer aproximation using bullying at school.

In one situation said bully does one bad thing to you then walks away. Such as calling you a bad name, pushing you down, punching your shoulder or something. But he does it once that day and not again usually until the next day. Would you really want to fight him?

In situation two, that same bully walks up to you and holds your arm and plays "stop hitting yourself" with your own fist on and off all day. Would you eventually hit him back?

I just believe that most other to perhaps all other sports contain only a fraction of the type of physical contact that really drives a person crazy.

 

[Kin]

The difference is huge between hitting and your example. For one, all of those things you listed are either incredibly rare compared to hits in hockey or are actually illegal. Those players have a right to be pissed off but since it doesn't happen consistently over a couple hours you can handle it better.

But the reason those things are rare in those other sports is precisely because leagues started penalizing those plays in an effort to get them out of the game. Baseball had a violence problem where fights and brushbacks were common. Basketball went through a similar period. Football has constantly been dealing with dirty hits. The games as we know them today are the result of the efforts to change what was, at the time, ingrained into those games as well.

Pointing out that difference as a justification for not doing anything in hockey is like saying that it's unfair to put someone in jail because he's grown so accustomed to committing crimes that it's part of his lifestyle.

 

[Kin]

It just seems like fighting is so ingrained into hockey that it's part of the game. Yes there is the occasional fight in the other 3 pro sports, but in those it just seems like a freak event

Yes, but as I say above the reason fighting is rare in those sports is because of concentrated efforts to make it that way.

 

[losveratos]

It just seems like fighting is so ingrained into hockey that it's part of the game. Yes there is the occasional fight in the other 3 pro sports, but in those it just seems like a freak event

Yes, but as I say above the reason fighting is rare in those sports is because of concentrated efforts to make it that way.

I agree with your assessment on how they would remove fighting from the game. But that as another poster pointed out, would most probably remove the hitting as well. Or at least tame it down so much that it's a bunch of 6' tall Kessel's out there throwing mild shoulder brushes at eachother.

I've watched leagues where hitting is illegal, such as some different female leagues. And it's a completely different sport. I would most probably stop watching. I find it incredibly boring.

I know some people love to watch golf and pine for a well executed tic tac toe pass for a perfect uninterrupted dunk. I'm just not that guy and I think a lot of other people are too.

If they want to remove fighting from the game and keep hitting, it will take a miracle or crazy fines and suspensions. Such as, fight a player and get a 1 game suspension, then 3, then 5, then 10 and so on. The goons would be out of the game at that point.

 

[Kin]

I agree with your assessment on how they would remove fighting from the game. But that as another poster pointed out, would most probably remove the hitting as well. Or at least tame it down so much that it's a bunch of 6' tall Kessel's out there throwing mild shoulder brushes at eachother.

Again, as busta and I have pointed out, that is an argument that is 100% contradicted by the facts. There are leagues out there, like the NCAA, that have gotten rid of fighting and kept hitting.

 

[losveratos]

I agree with your assessment on how they would remove fighting from the game. But that as another poster pointed out, would most probably remove the hitting as well. Or at least tame it down so much that it's a bunch of 6' tall Kessel's out there throwing mild shoulder brushes at eachother.

Again, as busta and I have pointed out, that is an argument that is 100% contradicted by the facts. There are leagues out there, like the NCAA, that have gotten rid of fighting and kept hitting.

How did they go about removing the fighting? I'm actually pretty interested in that.

Was it through serious fines and suspensions? Or did they successfully deploy another method?

 

[Bullfrog]

If they want to remove fighting from the game and keep hitting, it will take a miracle or crazy fines and suspensions. Such as, fight a player and get a 1 game suspension, then 3, then 5, then 10 and so on. The goons would be out of the game at that point.

I think part of the point some (including me) are making is that a 1 game suspension for fighting someone isn't a crazy fine. I'd call it a good start.

I've seen almost nobody who is in favour of removing fighting be in favour of removing hitting. I love hard, physical hockey. I still hate the fighting.

 

[TML fan]

Fighting will never be completely eliminated. People fight in rec hockey. I think what we might see is a gradual elimination of the staged fight and the traditional enforcer role, but fighting will always have its place in the game. The game lends itself to that reality. All they can really do is reduce its frequency.

That's true to a sense. Guys throw punches in baseball, basketball and football from time to time so those sports haven't "eliminated" fighting either. It's just that they penalize them appropriately.

I don't know that a 5 minute penalty isn't appropriate for a spur of the moment scrap. I don't know about you but I would be pretty upset if Lupul was suspended for any length of time for that little slap fight he had with Schenn.

 

[jdh1]

To ban fighting in hockey,I think you would have to ban hitting as well.It's the hitting that stirs up emotions to have a fight.

Hockey does not have some sort of monopoly on being a physical sport or one where emotions run high. If you're a basketball player and an opposing defender knocks your star player down with a flagrant foul, wouldn't that kick up the same response? If you play baseball do you think a pitcher whizzing a 95 mph fastball by your ear doesn't make you mad? How about a late hit on your quarterback?

Every one of those sports has managed to retain the elements that stir up emotion without saying "Yeah, you know, throwing punches at each other is part of the game".

You just told me in a previous post not to use another sport to prove my point.
I believe that the nature of the game in the NHL involves physical contact that can take place at high speeds.The difference that a player makes to hit someone hard or just brush by them is minimal,that even the referees miss at times,but often the players know.
If you take out the enforcer rule,your going to see a lot of subtle contact that may get vicious at times,that may result into some kind of stick swinging or attempt to injure.

 

[Kin]

You just told me in a previous post not to use another sport to prove my point.

No I didn't. I said that your use of that other sport was faulty, not that we can't look at other sports to look at how they dealt with similar problems. MMA never had a fighting "problem" becaue without fighting MMA doesn't exist.

 

[Kin]

Fighting will never be completely eliminated. People fight in rec hockey. I think what we might see is a gradual elimination of the staged fight and the traditional enforcer role, but fighting will always have its place in the game. The game lends itself to that reality. All they can really do is reduce its frequency.

That's true to a sense. Guys throw punches in baseball, basketball and football from time to time so those sports haven't "eliminated" fighting either. It's just that they penalize them appropriately.

I don't know that a 5 minute penalty isn't appropriate for a spur of the moment scrap. I don't know about you but I would be pretty upset if Lupul was suspended for any length of time for that little slap fight he had with Schenn.

I'd be as upset by that as I am when players on the Jays get suspended for something similarly stupid. It's focused at the players not at the league for not having a "a couple of swings is ok" policy.

 

[Crucialness Key]

If you want to get rid of fighting in hockey the penalty has to be more than 5 minutes. Think about it, that's like an inning of baseball, or less than half a quarter of a football or basketball game!
In order for the NHL to show its serious about eliminating fighting in hockey they have to start with progressive disciplinary actions based on missing full games...5 minutes is a joke!

Yeah, how useless is giving 5 minutes to Colton Orr?  "Oh crap, I still have 2 more shifts scheduled this game and only 34 minutes left to fit them in!!"

 

[Bullfrog]

You just told me in a previous post not to use another sport to prove my point.

No I didn't. I said that your use of that other sport was faulty, not that we can't look at other sports to look at how they dealt with similar problems. MMA never had a fighting "problem" becaue without fighting MMA doesn't exist.

Not sure why, but I just pictured two fighters getting mad, stop fighting, and start shooting wrist shots at each other.

 

[hockeyfan1]

One more way to reduce fighting:

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/darren_dreger/?id=434817

...and this:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/nhl-fighting-cultures-biggest-foe-is-the-legal-system/

 

[Bullfrog]

I found this statement curious from Dreger: "Linesmen now have the authority to step in, when it is safe to do so, and stop a fight when the combatants purposely take off their helmets."

Don't they have that authority now, regardless of what happens with helmets?
In the Lupul thread, some claimed he was stupid or idiotic for not wearing a foot guard. What can be more idiotic than taking off a helmet to let some 230lb goon punch you in the head?

 

[hockeyfan1]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nhl-rejected-steve-moore-s-disability-claim-according-to-court-documents-1.2550451