Game 15 - Panthers @ Leafs - Tues 11-08 - 7 PM SportsNet

[rdowdall]

You were one of Raycrofts harshest critics (and Toskalas too I believe).

I find it a little funny how you've decided to back Gustavsson through all this while you hammered Toskala/Raycroft for pretty much the exact same performance.

Also, while I'm here:

If you're looking for consistency in my arguments re: those goalies it's going to require you to actually read or recall what I actually said about those goalies and, sorry to say, it's not as easy or simplistic as "Raycroft bad, Gustavsson good".

What I've always been about, consistently, is wanting a narrative to emerge about the Maple Leafs that is consistent with reality. One of the reasons I was, in your words, one of Raycroft's harshest critics is because there were people who, all throughout Raycroft's one season as the starter, were genuinely claiming that he was playing well. That his win total(Leafs record!) proved he was an effective goalie. That narrative didn't match itself up at all with what I saw and I argued strongly against it.

Likewise, the narrative I've consistently argued against regarding Gustavsson this year has been people who have been unfairly singling him out for criticism and putting the weight of losses solely on his shoulders, not any criticism of him, or people who are using different standards for Gus then they were for Reimer when judging poor play or being so regimented and narrow that they would call his performance in the Philadelphia game poor because his SV% was low and 4 goals got past him.

You don't recollect correctly with Toskala because I didn't write much about him one way or the other. I thought the narrative on him was pretty accurate. I think people agreed that in 07-08 he was mediocre and then terrible afterwards. I have nothing to add and that was a fair read of what he added to the team.

But, hey, if you can find me saying "Gus has been terrific this year" then shove it in my face but the truth is that you can't because I haven't said that. What I've objected people to are the sort of people who've watched the last two games and tried to pin the struggles on the goaltending entirely while giving the lethargic corpse masquerading itself as the rest of the team a pass.

Again, I know that isn't as simple as thumbs up and thumbs down but I think it's pretty straightforward. And I'm definitely not going to take it seriously when barely literate knuckleheads think it's somehow proving me wrong to say "Hey nik, gus had a bad game last night".

This isn't just goaltending, the team is not playing well.  On the first goal, Schenn bobbled the play.  On the second goal, where was the rest of the team.  On the third goal, shouldn't you be locking your defensive zone down, and at least make it a minute before you allow a second shot.

This team took a look at it's record, and has read all of their press clippings and they think they can just show up and win a game.  Unfortunately, in the NHL when you have that attitude you get kicked down pretty quickly.  Look at all the people who were earlier on in the thread calling the Panthers kittens.  Did anybody take a look at their record?  This Leafs team, despite it's record cannot take a night off.  They don't have that kind of talent.  If they work hard, fight through the checks, and then block some shots, they should win their fair share of games, but they have done none of that over the last three games.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I thought Gustavsson actually played well, up until the part where the 2nd goal went in. He completely fell apart after that IMO. Goose has a confidence problem and some, I think, minor positional problems. I'm only going to talk of last night, as the whole debate about his total body of work isn't where I want to go right now.

He made some very good saves last night I think, they may have been reactionary in nature, but good saves nonetheless. He got a bit of bad luck on the deflection, but it threw him right off his game and he quickly let in another in which he probably should have had. He definitely could develop some mental fortitude, maybe Reimer could share the secret with him, but his difficulties are mental and positioning IMO. I think he has the talent, movement and reaction to be a good goalie in this league, whether it comes together is anybody's guess at this point.

 

[maplesyrup]

I think he has the talent, movement and reaction to be a good goalie in this league, whether it comes together is anybody's guess at this point.

Absolutely... but with Reimer gone, we just have to have a reliable #2. "Guessing" on him just isn't even an option right now in my opinion. Honestly, since Gus came over from Sweden, he hasn't been "reliable" and that was fine given we had other options. It's time to make a move - I really believe that.       

 

[Jalili]

Gustavsson is a mental wreck. I thought he looked good at the start of his rookie year but he has clearly deteriorated.

 

[L K]

The 3rd goal, to me, was probaby worse than the 2nd goal he gave up because the second goal had more to do with him playing the puck poorly.  Had the Leafs actually come back into the zone, there was no way that goal happens because the Panthers wouldn't have had the time to bring the puck out in front, have in bounce around and then be shot into the net. 

But on the 3rd one, why did Liles back away from the shooter and then put his stick (weakly with one hand) in the way of the shot.  He wasn't helping the situation there.  Engage the Panthers player, and again, there probably isn't a shot there. 

Gustavsson clearly gave up a terrible goal seconds earlier and everyone knew it.  So instead of saying "hey, let's get that one back and help him out" they played passive defense.  You don't give up 4 back-to-back goals in 20ish seconds over a 2 game period simply through bad goaltending.  It's the passive defensive play of the skaters on this team.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

It's time to make a move - I really believe that.       

I'm not totally against that, provided it's a really good move, but I would still like to keep Gustavsson and maybe put down in the minors for a while. He probably wouldn't like that, but such is life when things don't go too well.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Gustavsson clearly gave up a terrible goal seconds earlier and everyone knew it.  So instead of saying "hey, let's get that one back and help him out" they played passive defense.  You don't give up 4 back-to-back goals in 20ish seconds over a 2 game period simply through bad goaltending.  It's the passive defensive play of the skaters on this team.

No doubt, this team is hanging their goalies out to dry far to often. Their GAA and all round defensive stats are clear about that I think.

 

[puckinthehead]

I think the Leafs should ignore this brief period and play more desperate hockey to make up for a missing Reimer. Clog the opposing net, *everyone* block shots, play like it's 3rd period last 5 mins. - more urgency. Pretend you don't have a goalie Seems like they're watching themselves play instead of letting it fly.

 

[bustaheims]

He made some very good saves last night I think, they may have been reactionary in nature, but good saves nonetheless.

While those saves look really good in the highlight reels and such, they're actually a pretty significant representation of Gustavssson problems. The two biggest reasons Gustavsson has to make so many reactionary saves are because of what I'd say are the two biggest holes in his game - positioning and rebound control. He's improved in these areas since coming across the pond, but, nowhere close to enough to be anything more than a 15-20 game backup, because they're still areas where he struggles, and they are the types of things that lead to bad goals and the need for highlight reel saves. I'd be much much happier if Gustavsson was a bland, quiet, positional goalie with solid rebound control, because it would almost certainly mean that, with his quickness, size and flexibility, he could be putting up Vezina calibre performances. Unfortunately, while he had some success in the first few games after Reimer got hurt, he's wasting those assets because the other areas of his game have been inconsistent at best, for the most part.

 

[Erndog]

The 3rd goal, to me, was probaby worse than the 2nd goal he gave up because the second goal had more to do with him playing the puck poorly.  Had the Leafs actually come back into the zone, there was no way that goal happens because the Panthers wouldn't have had the time to bring the puck out in front, have in bounce around and then be shot into the net. 

But on the 3rd one, why did Liles back away from the shooter and then put his stick (weakly with one hand) in the way of the shot.  He wasn't helping the situation there.  Engage the Panthers player, and again, there probably isn't a shot there. 

Gustavsson clearly gave up a terrible goal seconds earlier and everyone knew it.  So instead of saying "hey, let's get that one back and help him out" they played passive defense.  You don't give up 4 back-to-back goals in 20ish seconds over a 2 game period simply through bad goaltending.  It's the passive defensive play of the skaters on this team.

Sometimes though, you need your goalie to bail you out.

Good goalies do that.  Even the Rangers have lapses and miscues and giveaways from their defence but nobody really freaks out because Lundqvist doesn't give up too many bad goals (save for against us 2 weeks ago).  And when he does he generally shuts it down right after.

I get what you're saying but in the words of John Torterella's Lightning days, "just make a damn save."

 

[Kin]

Good goalies do that.  Even the Rangers have lapses and miscues and giveaways from nobody really freaks out because Lundqvist doesn't give up too many bad goals (save for against us 2 weeks ago).  And when he does he generally shuts it down right after.

Sure, and that's why Lundqvist probably will lead over Gus narrowly when it comes to Vezina voting most years.

If any team around the league is really counting on their back-up goaltender to consistently bail them out I'm guessing they're all going to be weighing World Championship offers pretty soon.

 

[Erndog]

Good goalies do that.  Even the Rangers have lapses and miscues and giveaways from nobody really freaks out because Lundqvist doesn't give up too many bad goals (save for against us 2 weeks ago).  And when he does he generally shuts it down right after.

Sure, and that's why Lundqvist probably will lead over Gus narrowly when it comes to Vezina voting most years.

If any team around the league is really counting on their back-up goaltender to consistently bail them out I'm guessing they're all going to be weighing World Championship offers pretty soon.

Fair enough.

How about adequate NHL level goaltending?

Or is that too much to ask.

Because regardless of what you, or Bullfrog, or GUSTAVSSON4LYFE fan wants to think, he hasn't been giving us even that.

 

[Kin]

Fair enough.

How about adequate NHL level goaltending?

Or is that too much to ask.

Because regardless of what you, or Bullfrog, or GUSTAVSSON4LYFE fan wants to think, he hasn't been giving us even that.

I think it's too much to ask a back-up goalie to immediately become a competent starter when the starter goes down, yes. I think in most cases, there is a reason a goalie is a back-up goalie and if he was capable of being a legit NHL starter he wouldn't be a back-up.

I think that expecting him to be much more than a back-up goalie, with this crummy defense in front of him, is probably shooting the moon.

But you just keep on thinking that Gus is the only reason the team is losing and that the team would be 15-0-0 if Gus wasn't on the roster and that Gus is singlehandedly preventing a team of young Wayne Gretzkys and Bobby Orrs from winning the Stanley Cup.

 

[rdowdall]

Good goalies do that.  Even the Rangers have lapses and miscues and giveaways from nobody really freaks out because Lundqvist doesn't give up too many bad goals (save for against us 2 weeks ago).  And when he does he generally shuts it down right after.

Sure, and that's why Lundqvist probably will lead over Gus narrowly when it comes to Vezina voting most years.

If any team around the league is really counting on their back-up goaltender to consistently bail them out I'm guessing they're all going to be weighing World Championship offers pretty soon.

Fair enough.

How about adequate NHL level goaltending?

Or is that too much to ask.

Because regardless of what you, or Bullfrog, or GUSTAVSSON4LYFE fan wants to think, he hasn't been giving us even that.

Gustavsson is pro life?

 

[Erndog]

Fair enough.

How about adequate NHL level goaltending?

Or is that too much to ask.

Because regardless of what you, or Bullfrog, or GUSTAVSSON4LYFE fan wants to think, he hasn't been giving us even that.

I think it's too much to ask a back-up goalie to immediately become a competent starter when the starter goes down, yes. I think in most cases, there is a reason a goalie is a back-up goalie and if he was capable of being a legit NHL starter he wouldn't be a back-up.

I think that expecting him to be much more than a back-up goalie, with this crummy defense in front of him, is probably shooting the moon.

But you just keep on thinking that Gus is the only reason the team is losing and that the team would be 15-0-0 if Gus wasn't on the roster and that Gus is singlehandedly preventing a team of young Wayne Gretzkys and Bobby Orrs from winning the Stanley Cup.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kw5r6gAYzI1qza5oi.jpg[img]


Either way, I can't disagree that the "crummy D" needs to hold its end of the bargain up better but I can't help but think Gustavsson isn't doing them any favours either.  Again, the team has shown they play better in front of reasonable goaltending (ex. what Reimer's giving us).  I actually really believe that Gustavsson's continued poor performance has a direct correlation with the team playing poorly in front of them FOR HIM (if that makes any sense?).

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

While those saves look really good in the highlight reels and such, they're actually a pretty significant representation of Gustavssson problems. The two biggest reasons Gustavsson has to make so many reactionary saves are because of what I'd say are the two biggest holes in his game - positioning and rebound control. He's improved in these areas since coming across the pond, but, nowhere close to enough to be anything more than a 15-20 game backup, because they're still areas where he struggles, and they are the types of things that lead to bad goals and the need for highlight reel saves. I'd be much much happier if Gustavsson was a bland, quiet, positional goalie with solid rebound control, because it would almost certainly mean that, with his quickness, size and flexibility, he could be putting up Vezina calibre performances. Unfortunately, while he had some success in the first few games after Reimer got hurt, he's wasting those assets because the other areas of his game have been inconsistent at best, for the most part.

Yeah, his positioning is sometimes horrid. I mentioned that in games past, where he is anything but square to the shooter and the shooter sees the whole of one side to shoot at. I think it was the Montreal game, where I mentioned that Kostysin and Cammalleri had big targets to shoot at.

And the other obvious part of his game that needs a lot of work is his puck play, it scares me.

 

[Kin]

Either way, I can't disagree that the "crummy D" needs to hold its end of the bargain up better but I can't help but think Gustavsson isn't doing them any favours either.  Again, the team has shown they play better in front of reasonable goaltending (ex. what Reimer's giving us).  I actually really believe that Gustavsson's continued poor performance has a direct correlation with the team playing poorly in front of them FOR HIM (if that makes any sense?).

Honestly, I just don't know if that's true. I think the team had better results with Reimer in net and they definitely looked better but that was also while they took a tour of the cream-puff division. Would they look as good in front of Reimer playing some of the clubs that Gus has had to play against? I think it's unknowable at this point.

 

[Kin]

Honestly, I just don't know if that's true. I think the team had better results with Reimer in net and they definitely looked better but that was also while they took a tour of the cream-puff division.

Just to highlight this for a second it's actually a pretty significant change. The best team, standings wise, that Reimer started against was the Senators. The worst team, standings wise, that Gus has started against have been the Bruins. Reimer started the grand total of one game against a team that wasn't last or next to last in their division.

 

[Bullfrog]

Fair enough.

How about adequate NHL level goaltending?

Or is that too much to ask.

Because regardless of what you, or Bullfrog, or GUSTAVSSON4LYFE fan wants to think, he hasn't been giving us even that.

I think he's been giving us adequate NHL backup goaltending. Do I think he's part of the problem in the few losses we have? Absolutely. Do I think the rest of the team probably deserves more of the blame (in particular, defensive coverage around the net)? Absolutely as well.

 

[bustaheims]

And the other obvious part of his game that needs a lot of work is his puck play, it scares me.

While that's true, as far as I'm concerned, that's probably the easiest to fix - he just has to try to play to puck less. The less the puck is on his stick, the less mistakes he's going to make with it. Quite frankly, if all he ever did with the puck was stop it so one of his defencemen can pick it up easily, I'd be perfectly content with that.