General Leafs Talk: Post-Olympics Edition

[Redleaf]

I think everyone's old friend Howard Berger has gotten closer to what's really happened here...

http://www.bergerbytes.ca/dont-look-for-science-in-leafs-slump/

 

[brothert]

I think everyone's old friend Howard Berger has gotten closer to what's really happened here...

http://www.bergerbytes.ca/dont-look-for-science-in-leafs-slump/

Yeah,  I disagree.  At the end of last year we a first line and a goalie with some support players who struggled.  This year we have a first line and two goalies, we got rid of our support players, and had some bad luck with Bolland.  The season is much longer than last year.  I am not surprised that we're about to miss the playoffs, but I am pleasantly surprised that they are still in the hunt.  After the loss of Bolland I believe the team has attained more points than their level of play dictated. 

So meh, I don't feel the need to panic or blame any one person.... 

except Carlyle, Nonis, Clarkson, Phaneuf Reimer and Gardiner.  And Kadri. And Fraser, Ranger and Franson.  Have I missed anybody, oh wait Reimer's wife as well. . .. .

Is it possible to consider that last year may have been the team playing above their level?? ??  And we're back to reality.  Hopefully we could get a few more rookies into the line next year.

 

[bustaheims]

23-30 in regulation. 13-8 in OT/SO. The latter is nice, the former is sad. The Leafs have allowed opponents to earn 89 points against them this season - a .601 point % against.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

23-30 in regulation. 13-8 in OT/SO. The latter is nice, the former is sad. The Leafs have allowed opponents to earn 89 points against them this season - a .601 point % against.

So if they do somehow manage to string some wins together, those ROW's sure look like they could come into play.

 

[bustaheims]

So if they do somehow manage to string some wins together, those ROW's sure look like they could come into play.

Absolutely. They don't have the "luxury" of being to just earn the same number of points as Columbus or Detroit - they have to earn more while playing less games. Holding the tiebreaker is huge for teams on the bubble.

 

[ZBBM]

Perhaps my abiding belief in the team?s talent level led me to erroneously predict the Leafs to finish 6th in in the East despite fears about Carlyle, but I do still believe there?s a lot more talent here than what?s been on display lately. There?s also unquestionably some personnel weaknesses on this roster, with some particularly disappointing developments on the backend. I also believe there is some soft play going on among this group of forwards that falls beyond Carlyle. After all, more than one single factor goes into setting records for shots against (expansion-team bad) and being bottom-3 in goals against despite great goaltending. The difficulty, come the off season, is assessing the performances of some of the Leafs? defencemen and of their forwards in the defensive context after having watched them try to execute this system all season long.

Brownscombe.  He's pretty close to what I've been preaching, and rightly fingers the forwards too.  The top two lines are inconsistent at best in supporting the D.

 

[Bender]

Perhaps my abiding belief in the team?s talent level led me to erroneously predict the Leafs to finish 6th in in the East despite fears about Carlyle, but I do still believe there?s a lot more talent here than what?s been on display lately. There?s also unquestionably some personnel weaknesses on this roster, with some particularly disappointing developments on the backend. I also believe there is some soft play going on among this group of forwards that falls beyond Carlyle. After all, more than one single factor goes into setting records for shots against (expansion-team bad) and being bottom-3 in goals against despite great goaltending. The difficulty, come the off season, is assessing the performances of some of the Leafs? defencemen and of their forwards in the defensive context after having watched them try to execute this system all season long.

Brownscombe.  He's pretty close to what I've been preaching, and rightly fingers the forwards too.  The top two lines are inconsistent at best in supporting the D.

I don't really understand how he corroborates your thesis insofar as he says that the whole team needs improvement and actually harps on systems for the majority of this article.

 

[ZBBM]

Perhaps my abiding belief in the team?s talent level led me to erroneously predict the Leafs to finish 6th in in the East despite fears about Carlyle, but I do still believe there?s a lot more talent here than what?s been on display lately. There?s also unquestionably some personnel weaknesses on this roster, with some particularly disappointing developments on the backend. I also believe there is some soft play going on among this group of forwards that falls beyond Carlyle. After all, more than one single factor goes into setting records for shots against (expansion-team bad) and being bottom-3 in goals against despite great goaltending. The difficulty, come the off season, is assessing the performances of some of the Leafs? defencemen and of their forwards in the defensive context after having watched them try to execute this system all season long.

Brownscombe.  He's pretty close to what I've been preaching, and rightly fingers the forwards too.  The top two lines are inconsistent at best in supporting the D.

I don't really understand how he corroborates your thesis insofar as he says that the whole team needs improvement and actually harps on systems for the majority of this article.

I want all you people who somehow think everything's OK D-personnel-wise to tell me just how a coaching change alone is going to fix the indescribable mess we saw last night and so many nights this year.  Tell me exactly how a coaching change is going to make Dion Phaneuf think better, or stop Jake Gardiner giving up the puck, or make Gleason faster, or make Gunnarsson stronger, etc.

 

[Strangelove]

It seems absurd that we have to watch Clarkson and co put up almost impossibly low levels of production while Holland, who was playing--and playing well-- on the third line while the Leafs were winning is stuck in the minors. I'd have Holland in there over anyone in the bottom six (assuming Kulemin is a second liner). Put Holland between Bolland and Raymond and you actually have a pretty decent third line

But no, we have to watch Jay ****ing McClement playing 18 minutes of piss poor hockey, and Clarkson playing 15 minutes of some other game altogether.  This team is so poorly managed and coached right now it's beyond incredible.

 

[bustaheims]

I want all you people who somehow think everything's OK D-personnel-wise to tell me just how a coaching change alone is going to fix the indescribable mess we saw last night and so many nights this year.  Tell me exactly how a coaching change is going to make Dion Phaneuf think better, or stop Jake Gardiner giving up the puck, or make Gleason faster, or make Gunnarsson stronger, etc.

No one has said everything is okay personnel-wise on the D. We've just disagreed with who you've targeted and how you've suggested addressing the issues. Franson, Gleason and Ranger should all be gone - well, Ranger can stay as the #7 guy if he's willing to sign the same deal he's on right now. The other guys just need to be used differently, used less or be paired with better fits.

 

[ZBBM]

I want all you people who somehow think everything's OK D-personnel-wise to tell me just how a coaching change alone is going to fix the indescribable mess we saw last night and so many nights this year.  Tell me exactly how a coaching change is going to make Dion Phaneuf think better, or stop Jake Gardiner giving up the puck, or make Gleason faster, or make Gunnarsson stronger, etc.

No one has said everything is okay personnel-wise on the D. We've just disagreed with who you've targeted and how you've suggested addressing the issues. Franson, Gleason and Ranger should all be gone - well, Ranger can stay as the #7 guy if he's willing to sign the same deal he's on right now. The other guys just need to be used differently, used less or be paired with better fits.

Good, at least you're on record as claiming that changing out Franson and Gleason is all that really needs to be done in terms of new personnel on D.  Needless to say, I think that's way short of what's called for.

It will be interesting to see what the so-called expert pundits have to say about the topic during the soon-to-begin postseason postmortem.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Perhaps my abiding belief in the team?s talent level led me to erroneously predict the Leafs to finish 6th in in the East despite fears about Carlyle, but I do still believe there?s a lot more talent here than what?s been on display lately. There?s also unquestionably some personnel weaknesses on this roster, with some particularly disappointing developments on the backend. I also believe there is some soft play going on among this group of forwards that falls beyond Carlyle. After all, more than one single factor goes into setting records for shots against (expansion-team bad) and being bottom-3 in goals against despite great goaltending. The difficulty, come the off season, is assessing the performances of some of the Leafs? defencemen and of their forwards in the defensive context after having watched them try to execute this system all season long.

Brownscombe.  He's pretty close to what I've been preaching, and rightly fingers the forwards too.  The top two lines are inconsistent at best in supporting the D.

I don't really understand how he corroborates your thesis insofar as he says that the whole team needs improvement and actually harps on systems for the majority of this article.

I want all you people who somehow think everything's OK D-personnel-wise to tell me just how a coaching change alone is going to fix the indescribable mess we saw last night and so many nights this year.  Tell me exactly how a coaching change is going to make Dion Phaneuf think better, or stop Jake Gardiner giving up the puck, or make Gleason faster, or make Gunnarsson stronger, etc.

Players can look worse than they are playing in a system that isn't working.  Either the system is bad or it's not the right system for this group of players, but in either event players can be taught to play an effective system.  Just because they haven't or can't for this coach, doesn't mean they are incapable of it.  It would be a pretty big coincidence if somehow the Leafs got the 6 D in the league who couldn't be taught a system.

 

[ZBBM]

Perhaps my abiding belief in the team?s talent level led me to erroneously predict the Leafs to finish 6th in in the East despite fears about Carlyle, but I do still believe there?s a lot more talent here than what?s been on display lately. There?s also unquestionably some personnel weaknesses on this roster, with some particularly disappointing developments on the backend. I also believe there is some soft play going on among this group of forwards that falls beyond Carlyle. After all, more than one single factor goes into setting records for shots against (expansion-team bad) and being bottom-3 in goals against despite great goaltending. The difficulty, come the off season, is assessing the performances of some of the Leafs? defencemen and of their forwards in the defensive context after having watched them try to execute this system all season long.

Brownscombe.  He's pretty close to what I've been preaching, and rightly fingers the forwards too.  The top two lines are inconsistent at best in supporting the D.

I don't really understand how he corroborates your thesis insofar as he says that the whole team needs improvement and actually harps on systems for the majority of this article.

I want all you people who somehow think everything's OK D-personnel-wise to tell me just how a coaching change alone is going to fix the indescribable mess we saw last night and so many nights this year.  Tell me exactly how a coaching change is going to make Dion Phaneuf think better, or stop Jake Gardiner giving up the puck, or make Gleason faster, or make Gunnarsson stronger, etc.

Players can look worse than they are playing in a system that isn't working.  Either the system is bad or it's not the right system for this group of players, but in either event players can be taught to play an effective system.  Just because they haven't or can't for this coach, doesn't mean they are incapable of it.  It would be a pretty big coincidence if somehow the Leafs got the 6 D in the league who couldn't be taught a system.

I'll just point out that Phaneuf hasn't been stellar in either Wilson's system (which was supposed to emphasize defense) or Carlyle's.  At some point you have to conclude that maybe the guy just isn't a good enough defender to be your #1 defenseman, and it's not just the system he plays.

 

[bustaheims]

Good, at least you're on record as claiming that changing out Franson and Gleason is all that really needs to be done in terms of new personnel on D.  Needless to say, I think that's way short of what's called for.

It will be interesting to see what the so-called expert pundits have to say about the topic during the soon-to-begin postseason postmortem.

I know you do, but, I also think you're putting to ouch emphasis on that one segment of the roster. The 3rd and 4th lines of the team need to be completely restructured. The team needs to have much better two-way players in that part of their lineup. Other than Kulemin (who has bounced around between the 2nd and 3rd line this season), Bolland (before he got hurt - he hasn't been great in the 3 games since coming back) and Holland (when he's actually seen decent ice time), that's been sorely lacking all season.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Perhaps my abiding belief in the team?s talent level led me to erroneously predict the Leafs to finish 6th in in the East despite fears about Carlyle, but I do still believe there?s a lot more talent here than what?s been on display lately. There?s also unquestionably some personnel weaknesses on this roster, with some particularly disappointing developments on the backend. I also believe there is some soft play going on among this group of forwards that falls beyond Carlyle. After all, more than one single factor goes into setting records for shots against (expansion-team bad) and being bottom-3 in goals against despite great goaltending. The difficulty, come the off season, is assessing the performances of some of the Leafs? defencemen and of their forwards in the defensive context after having watched them try to execute this system all season long.

Brownscombe.  He's pretty close to what I've been preaching, and rightly fingers the forwards too.  The top two lines are inconsistent at best in supporting the D.

I don't really understand how he corroborates your thesis insofar as he says that the whole team needs improvement and actually harps on systems for the majority of this article.

I want all you people who somehow think everything's OK D-personnel-wise to tell me just how a coaching change alone is going to fix the indescribable mess we saw last night and so many nights this year.  Tell me exactly how a coaching change is going to make Dion Phaneuf think better, or stop Jake Gardiner giving up the puck, or make Gleason faster, or make Gunnarsson stronger, etc.

Players can look worse than they are playing in a system that isn't working.  Either the system is bad or it's not the right system for this group of players, but in either event players can be taught to play an effective system.  Just because they haven't or can't for this coach, doesn't mean they are incapable of it.  It would be a pretty big coincidence if somehow the Leafs got the 6 D in the league who couldn't be taught a system.

I'll just point out that Phaneuf hasn't been stellar in either Wilson's system (which was supposed to emphasize defense) or Carlyle's.  At some point you have to conclude that maybe the guy just isn't a good enough defender to be your #1 defenseman, and it's not just the system he plays.

Wilson's system was supposed to emphasize defense?  I thought he was fine under Wilson.

 

[ZBBM]

Good, at least you're on record as claiming that changing out Franson and Gleason is all that really needs to be done in terms of new personnel on D.  Needless to say, I think that's way short of what's called for.

It will be interesting to see what the so-called expert pundits have to say about the topic during the soon-to-begin postseason postmortem.

I know you do, but, I also think you're putting to ouch emphasis on that one segment of the roster. The 3rd and 4th lines of the team need to be completely restructured. The team needs to have much better two-way players in that part of their lineup. Other than Kulemin (who has bounced around between the 2nd and 3rd line this season), Bolland (before he got hurt - he hasn't been great in the 3 games since coming back) and Holland (when he's actually seen decent ice time), that's been sorely lacking all season.

I don't disagree at all.  But what I say is that none of that will matter if the D isn't thoroughly overhauled.

 

[ZBBM]

Perhaps my abiding belief in the team?s talent level led me to erroneously predict the Leafs to finish 6th in in the East despite fears about Carlyle, but I do still believe there?s a lot more talent here than what?s been on display lately. There?s also unquestionably some personnel weaknesses on this roster, with some particularly disappointing developments on the backend. I also believe there is some soft play going on among this group of forwards that falls beyond Carlyle. After all, more than one single factor goes into setting records for shots against (expansion-team bad) and being bottom-3 in goals against despite great goaltending. The difficulty, come the off season, is assessing the performances of some of the Leafs? defencemen and of their forwards in the defensive context after having watched them try to execute this system all season long.

Brownscombe.  He's pretty close to what I've been preaching, and rightly fingers the forwards too.  The top two lines are inconsistent at best in supporting the D.

I don't really understand how he corroborates your thesis insofar as he says that the whole team needs improvement and actually harps on systems for the majority of this article.

I want all you people who somehow think everything's OK D-personnel-wise to tell me just how a coaching change alone is going to fix the indescribable mess we saw last night and so many nights this year.  Tell me exactly how a coaching change is going to make Dion Phaneuf think better, or stop Jake Gardiner giving up the puck, or make Gleason faster, or make Gunnarsson stronger, etc.

Players can look worse than they are playing in a system that isn't working.  Either the system is bad or it's not the right system for this group of players, but in either event players can be taught to play an effective system.  Just because they haven't or can't for this coach, doesn't mean they are incapable of it.  It would be a pretty big coincidence if somehow the Leafs got the 6 D in the league who couldn't be taught a system.

I'll just point out that Phaneuf hasn't been stellar in either Wilson's system (which was supposed to emphasize defense) or Carlyle's.  At some point you have to conclude that maybe the guy just isn't a good enough defender to be your #1 defenseman, and it's not just the system he plays.

Wilson's system was supposed to emphasize defense?  I thought he was fine under Wilson.

He's regressed under RC, eh?

 

[bustaheims]

I don't disagree at all.  But what I say is that none of that will matter if the D isn't thoroughly overhauled.

And I strongly disagree. I think a change in system/strategy and some smaller upgrades throughout the lineup will have a much bigger impact than you realize.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I don't disagree at all.  But what I say is that none of that will matter if the D isn't thoroughly overhauled.

And I strongly disagree. I think a change in system/strategy and some smaller upgrades throughout the lineup will have a much bigger impact than you realize.

Can we just fire Randy already to put this one to bed?

 

[Spider]

How has Colorado changed so drastically?  No one would have thought they would have the season they are currently enjoying.  They changed the system, the players got older and more experienced together, and the goalies got better.  They didn't drastically overhaul the team.