General Leafs Talk v2.0

[mr grieves]

Yeah but Smith is playing well. He shouldn't be bumped because Peter effing Holland is Peter effing Holland. Say what you want about McClement but he's paid his dues both on this team and in this league. He's being rewarded for that. Holland has to earn his ice time. He just so happened to get traded to a team with a coach who doesn't use his 4th line.

As long as Smith keeps playing well, Holland is on the 4th line. He has to make the most of it.

And what exactly do you envision that being?

 

[TML fan]

Yeah but Smith is playing well. He shouldn't be bumped because Peter effing Holland is Peter effing Holland. Say what you want about McClement but he's paid his dues both on this team and in this league. He's being rewarded for that. Holland has to earn his ice time. He just so happened to get traded to a team with a coach who doesn't use his 4th line.

As long as Smith keeps playing well, Holland is on the 4th line. He has to make the most of it.

And what exactly do you envision that being?

Working hard in practice, having effective shifts at both ends of the ice, not taking penalties, playing physically, winning face offs. The little things.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yeah but Smith is playing well. He shouldn't be bumped because Peter effing Holland is Peter effing Holland. Say what you want about McClement but he's paid his dues both on this team and in this league. He's being rewarded for that. Holland has to earn his ice time. He just so happened to get traded to a team with a coach who doesn't use his 4th line.

As long as Smith keeps playing well, Holland is on the 4th line. He has to make the most of it.

He should bump McClement.  Just because you've "paid your dues" shouldn't mean that a player should get more minutes than they are useful in.  Holland's skillset isn't a 4th line, 5-6 minute skillset, whereas McClement is better in smaller doses because he brings no offensive production whatsoever.  He can get his 5:00 at ES and 4:00ish more on the PK per night and that would be fine - but what good is Holland on the 4th line?  Sure, Holland on the 4th line is much better than what they've been throwing out there, but it pretty much wastes his offensive skill if they keep him on the 4th line.

I don't care if the 4th line chips in more than a few points, just want to see competent players on that line.  Having said that, while Holland is a competent player, the team needs offense and if he stays on the 4th line it's wasted for both him and McClement.

 

[mr grieves]

Yeah but Smith is playing well. He shouldn't be bumped because Peter effing Holland is Peter effing Holland. Say what you want about McClement but he's paid his dues both on this team and in this league. He's being rewarded for that. Holland has to earn his ice time. He just so happened to get traded to a team with a coach who doesn't use his 4th line.

As long as Smith keeps playing well, Holland is on the 4th line. He has to make the most of it.

And what exactly do you envision that being?

Working hard in practice, having effective shifts at both ends of the ice, not taking penalties, playing physically, winning face offs. The little things.

So, nothing that increases the likelihood of winning hockey games by providing what this team most desperately needs. But at least the moral melodrama of dues paid and big breaks is playing out according to script.

 

[bustaheims]

The whole "paying your dues" bit really only comes into play when you have two guys fighting for the same spot on the roster to play the same role. That's not what's happening with Holland and McClement. Holland's not here to be a 4th line PK specialist. He's here to hopefully help spark some offence. He needs to play with guys who don't have hands made of stone to be useful. McClement on the 3rd line with Holland getting 5 minutes on the 4th is a misuse of assets. It doesn't maximize the potential from the roster.

 

[freer]

Does Liles have to clear waivers? If so I would not be surprised if someone picks him up. There have been alot of injuries to D-men in the league.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

What they said.

 

[TML fan]

Yeah but Smith is playing well. He shouldn't be bumped because Peter effing Holland is Peter effing Holland. Say what you want about McClement but he's paid his dues both on this team and in this league. He's being rewarded for that. Holland has to earn his ice time. He just so happened to get traded to a team with a coach who doesn't use his 4th line.

As long as Smith keeps playing well, Holland is on the 4th line. He has to make the most of it.

He should bump McClement.  Just because you've "paid your dues" shouldn't mean that a player should get more minutes than they are useful in.  Holland's skillset isn't a 4th line, 5-6 minute skillset, whereas McClement is better in smaller doses because he brings no offensive production whatsoever.  He can get his 5:00 at ES and 4:00ish more on the PK per night and that would be fine - but what good is Holland on the 4th line?  Sure, Holland on the 4th line is much better than what they've been throwing out there, but it pretty much wastes his offensive skill if they keep him on the 4th line.

I don't care if the 4th line chips in more than a few points, just want to see competent players on that line.  Having said that, while Holland is a competent player, the team needs offense and if he stays on the 4th line it's wasted for both him and McClement.

I think basing lineup decisions on "skill sets" particularly those unproven at the NHL level, is at least as preposterous as basing it on league status. In this case, I'll side with the veteran.

 

[TML fan]

Yeah but Smith is playing well. He shouldn't be bumped because Peter effing Holland is Peter effing Holland. Say what you want about McClement but he's paid his dues both on this team and in this league. He's being rewarded for that. Holland has to earn his ice time. He just so happened to get traded to a team with a coach who doesn't use his 4th line.

As long as Smith keeps playing well, Holland is on the 4th line. He has to make the most of it.

And what exactly do you envision that being?

Working hard in practice, having effective shifts at both ends of the ice, not taking penalties, playing physically, winning face offs. The little things.

So, nothing that increases the likelihood of winning hockey games by providing what this team most desperately needs. But at least the moral melodrama of dues paid and big breaks is playing out according to script.

As I said above, how does putting a guy who has literally done nothing at the NHL level, other than get drafted and have a positive scouting report, help the Leafs win games over a guy who has at least proven he can play in the league for more than 36 games?

 

[TML fan]

The whole "paying your dues" bit really only comes into play when you have two guys fighting for the same spot on the roster to play the same role. That's not what's happening with Holland and McClement. Holland's not here to be a 4th line PK specialist. He's here to hopefully help spark some offence. He needs to play with guys who don't have hands made of stone to be useful. McClement on the 3rd line with Holland getting 5 minutes on the 4th is a misuse of assets. It doesn't maximize the potential from the roster.

He needs to prove he can play in the league before he's asked to do anything else. It's like "here, I'm going to put you at the controls of a 747 with 400 people on board because I saw you do it in a flight simulator once, and your test scores were very high"

Just because scouts say he can provide offence doesn't mean he can. And if he can't, and can't do anything else, like the little things I described, then how is he a better choice?

 

[bustaheims]

As I said above, how does putting a guy who has literally done nothing at the NHL level, other than get drafted and have a positive scouting report, help the Leafs win games over a guy who has at least proven he can play in the league for more than 36 games?

Because, it puts both those players into positions where they're more likely to succeed instead of having them in positions where they struggle/are ineffective.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yeah but Smith is playing well. He shouldn't be bumped because Peter effing Holland is Peter effing Holland. Say what you want about McClement but he's paid his dues both on this team and in this league. He's being rewarded for that. Holland has to earn his ice time. He just so happened to get traded to a team with a coach who doesn't use his 4th line.

As long as Smith keeps playing well, Holland is on the 4th line. He has to make the most of it.

He should bump McClement.  Just because you've "paid your dues" shouldn't mean that a player should get more minutes than they are useful in.  Holland's skillset isn't a 4th line, 5-6 minute skillset, whereas McClement is better in smaller doses because he brings no offensive production whatsoever.  He can get his 5:00 at ES and 4:00ish more on the PK per night and that would be fine - but what good is Holland on the 4th line?  Sure, Holland on the 4th line is much better than what they've been throwing out there, but it pretty much wastes his offensive skill if they keep him on the 4th line.

I don't care if the 4th line chips in more than a few points, just want to see competent players on that line.  Having said that, while Holland is a competent player, the team needs offense and if he stays on the 4th line it's wasted for both him and McClement.

I think basing lineup decisions on "skill sets" particularly those unproven at the NHL level, is at least as preposterous as basing it on league status. In this case, I'll side with the veteran.

So if you were the coach in Pittsburgh in 2006-06, safe to say you'd have Eric Boguniecki ahead of Sidney Crosby in your depth chart?  One had clearly earned their status at the NHL level more than the other at that point.

 

[bustaheims]

Just because scouts say he can provide offence doesn't mean he can. And if he can't, and can't do anything else, like the little things I described, then how is he a better choice?

Except that he's done all of the things you bring up except win face-offs at the same rate as McClement. He's hitting at a faster pace than McClement. He's only taken 2 penalties, one of which was an extremely questionable call. When he does get more than a handful of shifts, he's been one of the hardest working players on the ice when he's been on there. He's been doing all the little things, and, yet, here we are.

 

[TML fan]

Yeah but Smith is playing well. He shouldn't be bumped because Peter effing Holland is Peter effing Holland. Say what you want about McClement but he's paid his dues both on this team and in this league. He's being rewarded for that. Holland has to earn his ice time. He just so happened to get traded to a team with a coach who doesn't use his 4th line.

As long as Smith keeps playing well, Holland is on the 4th line. He has to make the most of it.

He should bump McClement.  Just because you've "paid your dues" shouldn't mean that a player should get more minutes than they are useful in.  Holland's skillset isn't a 4th line, 5-6 minute skillset, whereas McClement is better in smaller doses because he brings no offensive production whatsoever.  He can get his 5:00 at ES and 4:00ish more on the PK per night and that would be fine - but what good is Holland on the 4th line?  Sure, Holland on the 4th line is much better than what they've been throwing out there, but it pretty much wastes his offensive skill if they keep him on the 4th line.

I don't care if the 4th line chips in more than a few points, just want to see competent players on that line.  Having said that, while Holland is a competent player, the team needs offense and if he stays on the 4th line it's wasted for both him and McClement.

I think basing lineup decisions on "skill sets" particularly those unproven at the NHL level, is at least as preposterous as basing it on league status. In this case, I'll side with the veteran.

So if you were the coach in Pittsburgh in 2006-06, safe to say you'd have Eric Boguniecki ahead of Sidney Crosby in your depth chart?  One had clearly earned their status at the NHL level more than the other at that point.

The only response this warrants is the response that it doesn't warrant one.

 

[TML fan]

Just because scouts say he can provide offence doesn't mean he can. And if he can't, and can't do anything else, like the little things I described, then how is he a better choice?

Except that he's done all of the things you bring up except win face-offs at the same rate as McClement. He's hitting at a faster pace than McClement. He's only taken 2 penalties, one of which was an extremely questionable call. When he does get more than a handful of shifts, he's been one of the hardest working players on the ice when he's been on there. He's been doing all the little things, and, yet, here we are.

Then perhaps his time will come, and you should be a little more patient?

 

[bustaheims]

Then perhaps his time will come, and you should be a little more patient?

This team no longer has the luxury of patience.

 

[TML fan]

Then perhaps his time will come, and you should be a little more patient?

This team no longer has the luxury of patience.

That may be so, but I doubt it could be demonstrated that Holland's presence further up the depth chart would have a noticeable impact on the team's results.

 

[Kin]

This team no longer has the luxury of patience.

But isn't that only true, if that, in the context of this year and not in the context of properly bringing along a 22 year old player who might have a real future in the league?

 

[mr grieves]

Then perhaps his time will come, and you should be a little more patient?

This team no longer has the luxury of patience.

That may be so, but I doubt it could be demonstrated that Holland's presence further up the depth chart would have a noticeable impact on the team's results.

And what would demonstrate that? The thing Holland brings that could impact results is some offensive skill, and you've ruled out scouting reports, AHL play, or what was observed when he played further up the line-up as demonstrations of that skill.

He needs to prove he can play in the league before he's asked to do anything else. It's like "here, I'm going to put you at the controls of a 747 with 400 people on board because I saw you do it in a flight simulator once, and your test scores were very high"

Not only is this something of an overstatement for centering some combination of Nik Kulimen, Carter Ashton, Mason Raymond, and Lupul, but the other option is putting a chimp who was shot into space at the controls of that jet.

 

[TML fan]

As I said above, how does putting a guy who has literally done nothing at the NHL level, other than get drafted and have a positive scouting report, help the Leafs win games over a guy who has at least proven he can play in the league for more than 36 games?

Because, it puts both those players into positions where they're more likely to succeed instead of having them in positions where they struggle/are ineffective.

I fail to see how giving a player limited responsibility and having him struggle warrants giving him more responsibility.

If the argument is that he's not struggling, then logically, there is no harm in keeping him in that role until a point is reached that he's done his time in that role and sufficiently proven that he can maintain a consistent level of good play over an extended period of time, and the player he's bumping is struggling to the point that it warrants that player having his role reduced.