Idiocracy

[CarltonTheBear]

It has been proven that in Minneapolis, that most of the looters and "violent" protesters have bussed in from other centres to wreak Havoc. 

Nope.

That was a lie. By the police.

 

[bustaheims]

The system fails to deal with the racist officers who act this way and then it causes other racist officers who see no punishment to act the same way. Policing is a field where we can't afford to have as many "bad apples" as there are.

Exactly.

Also, let's not forget what the phrase "bad apples" refers to - a bad apple spoils the whole bunch. Bad apples need to be removed ASAP in order to prevent the rot from spreading. You don't just accept them as being in every segment of society - you address the problems that they cause and the issues that led to them becoming bad apples in the first place. You don't just pass it off with glib statements like #NotAll(insert whatever group is being spoken about).

 

[Highlander]

One thing I have trouble reconciling is that Police are being ostracized for treating all Black people as if they are the same criminal they deal with regularly while at the same time people are treating all Police Officers as if they are the Racist Cops that act that way??

a) if you have trouble reconciling something, you can do something about that by learning as much as you can
b) who has the power? Those that have the power also have the responsibility
c) the police are the acting arm of a system that is rooted in racism (War on Drugs, Iran-Contra cocaine, Infiltration of law enforcement by white supremacists)

This is a bit like saying, why are we treating all cotton plantation owners as racist.

Just to clarify something, Hollywoods take on the "plantation owner" is to paint all of them with the same brush. They needed a villain as all stories need conflict.  So you are never going to see any sort of Happy Plantation stories (Ok maybe Song of the South).  You just can't spin slavery like Mel Brooks did with Hitler.  Or even Jo Jo Rabbits happy Hitler (at least at the start of the film).

The fact of the matter is a huge majority of plantation owners took care of their slaves, they had made huge investments in them and it was in their natural self interest to make sure they lived healthy lives.
After emancipation huge amounts of previous slaves stayed on their plantations to work as free men with wages, rather than fact the wave of bigotry that existed and exists to this day in all major centres.

Slavery is the biggest blight this world has ever seen, but we are now paying what is called the "Butchers Bill" of response for the seeds planted over 300 years ago.  To finger the police as puppets of the State is highly simplistic, things are changing albeit not as fast as we hoped or pray for.
We can only ask that police continue with what I saw yesterday on the news, that many departments including Flint, Michigans to create reconciliation between all peoples of colour.

 

[Kin]

Just to clarify something, Hollywoods take on the "plantation owner" is to paint all of them with the same brush. They needed a villain as all stories need conflict.  So you are never going to see any sort of Happy Plantation stories (Ok maybe Song of the South).  You just can't spin slavery like Mel Brooks did with Hitler.  Or even Jo Jo Rabbits happy Hitler (at least at the start of the film).

The fact of the matter is a huge majority of plantation owners took care of their slaves, they had made huge investments in them and it was in their natural self interest to make sure they lived healthy lives.
After emancipation huge amounts of previous slaves stayed on their plantations to work as free men with wages, rather than fact the wave of bigotry that existed and exists to this day in all major centres.

Wow. Just wow.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The fact of the matter is a huge majority of plantation owners took care of their slaves, they had made huge investments in them and it was in their natural self interest to make sure they lived healthy lives.

Holy shit...

 

[Bender]

Or we could call it "Lives Matter". 

Just a few thoughts, when I moved to the Caribbean 30 years ago, I noticed two things. Why did the Locals never sit on their porches or balconies, and why the overall mistreatment of dogs?  I asked one of my Local friends about this and he candidly told me that when they arrived as slaves, the only time they felt safe was when they were in their own shacks. There they could be free of the slaveowners eye and have camaraderie with their fellow slaves and families. In the case of dogs, they were used to control the slaves. The Blacks of the day were basically fearless of guns, but not dogs, so dogs became the control mechanism.
I say all this as we see that customs set up from the late 1600's are still part of the practices and habits of our present world.  Racism roots run very deep and we cannot expect a magic wand to wash the repercussions of Slavery away. In the islands there was a concerted effort to teach Local people about Dogs and how they should be treated and the value of them as companions. I can actually say over 30 years I have seen a quantum shift regarding the treatment of dogs in the islands. Great.  Racism, not so easy.
I remember as a young boy, going to Florida and seeing the rifles in the back windows of pick up trucks, the racism factor was so thick you could cut the atmosphere with a knife.  In the 70's I was in a bar with Dad when some rednecks came in and after a few drinks where into lines like "Hey Orville, have you every shot a N__gger"?  Orville responds, "No, but I sure would like too".  They laughed so hard they were falling off their bar stools.  I grabbed my Dad and quickly vacated the dive he had chosen.

Yet years later the stench of racism seems like it is finally gradually lifting. At a snails pace but it is lifting.

I feel for the peaceful protesters who are out to try and jump start true equality and respect.
It's really too bad that the movement has been totally highjacked by looters and arsonists. 
It also to bad the U.S does not have a present day Martin Luther King to preach peace and tolerance to try and help his people. They need a leader like India needed Gandhi in his day.
I fear that Trump will have to move in the military with shoot to kill orders and then we may see the real race war that has been boiling for centuries.  I certainly hope not.

I think generally most people who are speaking out loud aren't condoning violence. But it's almost like police attacking people, having them lose eyes, tear gas thrown, and police cars running people over... you might be stoking some violence. If the President is descending into thuggery and dictatorial rule... you might be stoking some violence.

And I do think most people are protesting peacefully, and I think looting of stores are just crimes of opportunity by people who aren't part of the protests, but if the people have been pushed this far to a point where some level of violence is the only thing that gets the attention of those in power then maybe they brought it upon themselves. It's how America was founded in the first place for crying out loud. I'm sure the British were saying "Well, it'd be fine if you protested in the way we approve of (which is not protesting) but did you really need to destroy all that tea??"

I fear that Trump will have to move in the military with shoot to kill orders and then we may see the real race war that has been boiling for centuries.

He doesn't have to do that. That's a choice that he will have made because his mind is so bereft of the capability of making good decisions; decisions and actions that de-escalate tensions, not stoke them.

 

[Highlander]

One thing I have trouble reconciling is that Police are being ostracized for treating all Black people as if they are the same criminal they deal with regularly while at the same time people are treating all Police Officers as if they are the Racist Cops that act that way??

To lump all police together as complete Racist element is insane. There are approx; 800,000 police officers are in the U.S.  There are bad apples in all segments of our society.  Business leaders like Epstein and Peter Nygard pray on young woman with their wealth.  Are all Business leaders pedophiles? Of course not.
Yes Racism runs deep and there is deep hatred between the races in the U.S. especially.  Trust is zero.
There were segment on last nights news where police departments are reaching out and taking part in peaceful protests themselves.  There will be a lot of work and eduction coming out to try and bridge this gap. You can see its already started.

Not every individual officer is racist, the racism is systemic.

The system fails to deal with the racist officers who act this way and then it causes other racist officers who see no punishment to act the same way. Policing is a field where we can't afford to have as many "bad apples" as there are.

And I agree with you totally, the other 3 officers in the Floyd case should be brought up on  murder charges and be prosecuted as well.  The African American population has to build trust that the perpetrators of such crimes will be brought to justice.  It's the only way out, besides Police outreach programs into Black communities. 

 

[Kin]

As big an issue as systemic racism is with police, and it's obviously a huge issue that needs urgent redress, what we're seeing down south is also about how police are proving themselves to be more than willing to effectively carry out any order against their fellow citizens regardless of whether or not it's humane or justifiable(using tear gas on enemy troops is banned during war time but they have no problem launching it at peacefully assembled people)

They're acting like gangsters. Gangsters who demand you care about their feelings or they won't do the job we pay them to do.

 

[Kin]

The African American population has to build trust that the perpetrators of such crimes will be brought to justice.  It's the only way out, besides Police outreach programs into Black communities.

Really? It's up to the African American community to build trust with the legal system?

Man, you are really embarrassing yourself here.

 

[Highlander]

It has been proven that in Minneapolis, that most of the looters and "violent" protesters have bussed in from other centres to wreak Havoc. 

Nope.

That was a lie. By the police.

Even if it is not true, it is true that there are two factions at work here: peaceful protesters working to honour Mr. Floyd by demanding an end to Social injustice and racism and accountability for crimes committed by police officers against peoples of colour.

The other faction are groups of looters and thugs, arsonists who are on a tangent of destruction and robbery. They are simply not part of the non violent movement. They don't honour Mr. Floyd.

One has nothing to do with the other. The second faction robs the first of the integrity of their peaceful movement.

 

[Highlander]

The African American population has to build trust that the perpetrators of such crimes will be brought to justice.  It's the only way out, besides Police outreach programs into Black communities.

Really? It's up to the African American community to build trust with the legal system?

Man, you are really embarrassing yourself here.

I think you have what I say sort of ass backwards here. Once the U.S. system shows the African American community that the perpetrators of such crimes will be punished and that this will not be tolerated, then the Black community can build trust slowly but surely that things are changing.
The good thing is that things are changing.

 

[Kin]

Even if it is not true, it is true that there are two factions at work here: peaceful protesters working to honour Mr. Floyd by demanding an end to Social injustice and racism and accountability for crimes committed by police officers against peoples of colour.

The other faction are groups of looters and thugs, arsonists who are on a tangent of destruction and robbery. They are simply not part of the non violent movement. They don't honour Mr. Floyd.

One has nothing to do with the other. The second faction robs the first of the integrity of their peaceful movement.

Just a brilliant distillation of how hypocritical and nonsensical this position is. Earlier, a few bad apples(to wit, murderers and racists) in the police didn't colour the whole of their organization. Now, the "looters and thugs" rob peaceful protesters of their integrity.

Jesus, just listen to yourself for a second and apply rudimentary critical thinking.

 

[Kin]

I think you have what I say sort of ass backwards here. Once the U.S. system shows the African American community that the perpetrators of such crimes will be punished and that this will not be tolerated, then the Black community can build trust slowly but surely that things are changing.
The good thing is that things are changing.

Except what you don't stunningly don't seem to realize is that what we're seeing is a direct result of the fact that things aren't changing. That nobody went to jail for Eric Garner's murder. Or Tamir Rice's. Or Trayvon Martin. Botham Jean was shot in his own apartment, eating ice cream by a cop and she only got 10 years in prison for it.

Even the charges against Chauvin are indications that things are being soft peddled, along with the "official" autopsy results that looked to blame his death on heart problems. That you can't see the plainly obvious cause and effect here is not surprising but it is pretty indicative of where you're at.

 

[Deebo]

And I agree with you totally, the other 3 officers in the Floyd case should be brought up on  murder charges and be prosecuted as well.  The African American population has to build trust that the perpetrators of such crimes will be brought to justice.  It's the only way out, besides Police outreach programs into Black communities. 

The problem isn't that people like you or me agree that these officers should be punished, the problem is that they aren't being punished by those in charge.

When an incident gets enough publicity or there is damning video an officer may get punished. However, there are countless instances of brutality, excessive force, unlawful searches/arrests or other injustices that don't result in a death that never get publicized.

 

[Kin]

https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/1267636511589031937

Things just keep on changing

 

[L K]

I think you have what I say sort of ass backwards here. Once the U.S. system shows the African American community that the perpetrators of such crimes will be punished and that this will not be tolerated, then the Black community can build trust slowly but surely that things are changing.
The good thing is that things are changing.

Except what you don't stunningly don't seem to realize is that what we're seeing is a direct result of the fact that things aren't changing. That nobody went to jail for Eric Garner's murder. Or Tamir Rice's. Or Trayvon Martin. Botham Jean was shot in his own apartment, eating ice cream by a cop and she only got 10 years in prison for it.

Even the charges against Chauvin are indications that things are being soft peddled, along with the "official" autopsy results that looked to blame his death on heart problems. That you can't see the plainly obvious cause and effect here is not surprising but it is pretty indicative of where you're at.

It's also bizarre to me that "a few bad apples" is an acceptable defense for the police.  The standard for the police should be higher than the community at large. 

 

[Kin]

It's also bizarre to me that "a few bad apples" is an acceptable defense for the police.  The standard for the police should be higher than the community at large.

Well, but this goes back to what I said earlier. I don't think "a few bad apples" is meant as a legitimate or honest defense. I think it's used as a way to deflect anger at blatant racism because there are certain people who don't actually care if cops are racist so long as cops are the sort of people entirely willing to gas and beat up fellow citizens for threatening the interests of the capitalist classes. It's why there's so much concern for shop windows and stolen merchandise vs. people's actual lives.

 

[Highlander]

I think you have what I say sort of ass backwards here. Once the U.S. system shows the African American community that the perpetrators of such crimes will be punished and that this will not be tolerated, then the Black community can build trust slowly but surely that things are changing.
The good thing is that things are changing.

Except what you don't stunningly don't seem to realize is that what we're seeing is a direct result of the fact that things aren't changing. That nobody went to jail for Eric Garner's murder. Or Tamir Rice's. Or Trayvon Martin. Botham Jean was shot in his own apartment, eating ice cream by a cop and she only got 10 years in prison for it.

Even the charges against Chauvin are indications that things are being soft peddled, along with the "official" autopsy results that looked to blame his death on heart problems. That you can't see the plainly obvious cause and effect here is not surprising but it is pretty indicative of where you're at.

Please do not insinuate where I am at. You don't know me and have a clue of who I am. Stop being a condescending bastard.  I have never said that this is where it should be at, but I am sure after this week that a huge paradigm shift will be underway in all police departments.

 

[Kin]

Please do not insinuate where I am at. You don't know me and have a clue of who I am.

An appropriate typo. I think I have a pretty solid idea of where the "Actually, plantation owners treated slaves really well" guy is at.

 

[Highlander]

https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/1267636511589031937

Things just keep on changing

I can pick isolated moments of police reaching out and hugging the community, of vocalizing peace.  You can pick a thousand of these unfortunate incidents and continue to paint your picture.