Is this the turning point???

[Kin]

Those that say a jacked up home crowd doesn't effect the players on the ice/field have never really played competitive hockey in front of a large crowd.

I'll agree that it can drive some players to fail....On the other hand, it drives some of us to succeed.

No busta and Nik, there is no scientific proof, but does it always have to come down to that with you two? It's great that you can pick up a paper and read the numbers in front of you, but personal experience should also be held valid.

With all due respect, if I were going to write a post quite so condescending, and I have in the past and am doing so right now, I'd at least do so with a significantly better grasp of what's actually being said. Nobody has said anything to the effect of "a jacked up crowd doesn't effect(and that should be affect) the players on the ice/field". In fact, I wrote a post that says the exact opposite.  What is being said, and apologies busta if I oversimplify your POV, is three-fold:

1) That whatever effect crowd noise does produce is very hard to link to any sort of improvement in performance, even for the players themselves.

2) That whatever effect crowd noise might have can affect visiting players as well as home players, thereby making any claim that it leads to any particular advantage for a home team inherently unknowable.

3) #2 is true and demonstrable because there is no evidence that having a loud/full crowd produces teams that have better than expected home W/L records over a sustained period of time.

And, again, I'd point out that the entire issue links back to the more specific point being made by some that the atmosphere at the ACC is itself deficient to produce the sort of noise that translates into this positive home ice effect. Even though I think it's entirely bogus, what James Reimer is saying is that the people who feel that way are wrong. That the ACC does get loud enough to give them this "boost".  The argument that you find "silly" wouldn't have started if certain people who shouldn't be allowed sharp objects tried to use it as "evidence" that they were right when it actually directly contradicts their claims about the crowd at the ACC.

If you're going to make a specific point along the lines of "crowd noise helps a home team win games" then, yes, there does need to be something in your argument that has some actual basis in logic or fact. That is not a slavish devotion to fact over personal feelings, although I don't see that as quite the negative that you do, it's just basic critical thinking.

 

[Leaflifer]

Those that say a jacked up home crowd doesn't effect the players on the ice/field have never really played competitive hockey in front of a large crowd.

I'll agree that it can drive some players to fail....On the other hand, it drives some of us to succeed.

No busta and Nik, there is no scientific proof, but does it always have to come down to that with you two? It's great that you can pick up a paper and read the numbers in front of you, but personal experience should also be held valid.


It's a silly argument anyways.

I agree with this. I've played some games in front of bigger crowds and a quiet crowd is the worst. It almost makes it feel uphill sometimes. Even a crowd cheering against you and insulting you (you know you are in their heads) can really get you pumped up in a good way.

It's only human.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Those that say a jacked up home crowd doesn't effect the players on the ice/field have never really played competitive hockey in front of a large crowd.

I'll agree that it can drive some players to fail....On the other hand, it drives some of us to succeed.

No busta and Nik, there is no scientific proof, but does it always have to come down to that with you two? It's great that you can pick up a paper and read the numbers in front of you, but personal experience should also be held valid.

With all due respect, if I were going to write a post quite so condescending, and I have in the past and am doing so right now, I'd at least do so with a significantly better grasp of what's actually being said. Nobody has said anything to the effect of "a jacked up crowd doesn't effect(and that should be affect) the players on the ice/field". In fact, I wrote a post that says the exact opposite.  What is being said, and apologies busta if I oversimplify your POV, is three-fold:

1) That whatever effect crowd noise does produce is very hard to link to any sort of improvement in performance, even for the players themselves.

2) That whatever effect crowd noise might have can affect visiting players as well as home players, thereby making any claim that it leads to any particular advantage for a home team inherently unknowable.

3) #2 is true and demonstrable because there is no evidence that having a loud/full crowd produces teams that have better than expected home W/L records over a sustained period of time.

And, again, I'd point out that the entire issue links back to the more specific point being made by some that the atmosphere at the ACC is itself deficient to produce the sort of noise that translates into this positive home ice effect. Even though I think it's entirely bogus, what James Reimer is saying is that the people who feel that way are wrong. That the ACC does get loud enough to give them this "boost".  The argument that you find "silly" wouldn't have started if certain people who shouldn't be allowed sharp objects tried to use it as "evidence" that they were right when it actually directly contradicts their claims about the crowd at the ACC.

If you're going to make a specific point along the lines of "crowd noise helps a home team win games" then, yes, there does need to be something in your argument that has some actual basis in logic or fact. That is not a slavish devotion to fact over personal feelings, although I don't see that as quite the negative that you do, it's just basic critical thinking.

I never said 'basic critical thinking' was a negative.

I've been jumping in and out of this thread because of the absurdity of it. Apparently I just jumped back in at the wrong time.

 

[Kin]

I never said 'basic critical thinking' was a negative.

I didn't say you did. I said you presented a devotion to fact over feelings as a negative. Even if that was what I was saying, and it isn't, I don't see it as the negative you present it as.

 

[nutman]

They almost blew it against Ott, but the big test will be Bos tonight. They are rested, we come in off a tight hard fought game, and a late flight. we have two key Injurys. a win would really impress us all.

 

[Zee]

They almost blew it against Ott, but the big test will be Bos tonight. They are rested, we come in off a tight hard fought game, and a late flight. we have two key Injurys. a win would really impress us all.

It's not looking good for tonight nut.  Leafs have been sloppy of late.  Sure they've won 3 in a row, but in two of those 3 wins you've given up 4 goals against the Isles and Sens, not exactly powerhouse teams.  Boston is rested and ready and you know they won't be taking the game lightly since they've lost 2 straight.  This has all the makings for a Boston blow out.

 

[nutman]

They almost blew it against Ott, but the big test will be Bos tonight. They are rested, we come in off a tight hard fought game, and a late flight. we have two key Injurys. a win would really impress us all.

It's not looking good for tonight nut.  Leafs have been sloppy of late.  Sure they've won 3 in a row, but in two of those 3 wins you've given up 4 goals against the Isles and Sens, not exactly powerhouse teams.  Boston is rested and ready and you know they won't be taking the game lightly since they've lost 2 straight.  This has all the makings for a Boston blow out.

I just have this feeling we pull off a win tonight.

 

[Zee]

They almost blew it against Ott, but the big test will be Bos tonight. They are rested, we come in off a tight hard fought game, and a late flight. we have two key Injurys. a win would really impress us all.

It's not looking good for tonight nut.  Leafs have been sloppy of late.  Sure they've won 3 in a row, but in two of those 3 wins you've given up 4 goals against the Isles and Sens, not exactly powerhouse teams.  Boston is rested and ready and you know they won't be taking the game lightly since they've lost 2 straight.  This has all the makings for a Boston blow out.

I just have this feeling we pull off a win tonight.

I would love for your feeling to be right, but I have serious doubts.

 

[leafplasma]

The current 3 game win streak leaves me with little to be excited about. Defensively, commitment to intensity over a full 60 minutes and goaltending have all been substandard. On the plus side we came away with 6 points despite all of that which is the sign of a team taking the next step. I still don't feel good about things though. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

They almost blew it against Ott, but the big test will be Bos tonight. They are rested, we come in off a tight hard fought game, and a late flight. we have two key Injurys. a win would really impress us all.

It's not looking good for tonight nut.  Leafs have been sloppy of late.  Sure they've won 3 in a row, but in two of those 3 wins you've given up 4 goals against the Isles and Sens, not exactly powerhouse teams.  Boston is rested and ready and you know they won't be taking the game lightly since they've lost 2 straight.  This has all the makings for a Boston blow out.

But Boston isn't all that rested, as I said.  There's a cumulative effect of lots of games in a few days, it's not just back-to-backs.

 

[Zee]

They almost blew it against Ott, but the big test will be Bos tonight. They are rested, we come in off a tight hard fought game, and a late flight. we have two key Injurys. a win would really impress us all.

It's not looking good for tonight nut.  Leafs have been sloppy of late.  Sure they've won 3 in a row, but in two of those 3 wins you've given up 4 goals against the Isles and Sens, not exactly powerhouse teams.  Boston is rested and ready and you know they won't be taking the game lightly since they've lost 2 straight.  This has all the makings for a Boston blow out.

But Boston isn't all that rested, as I said.  There's a cumulative effect of lots of games in a few days, it's not just back-to-backs.

Sure, but the Leafs are on 3 games in 4 nights including the back to back.  If both teams are equally tired, I still give the edge to the Bruins.  They collectively seem to have huge confidence against the Leafs, or conversely the Leafs collectively play poorly against Boston.  If the game were in Toronto I would be hopeful of a better result, but the Leafs traveling to Boston with the Bruins sitting there and waiting...the chants of "THANK YOU KESSEL!" will be in full force tonight.

 

[bustaheims]

Those that say a jacked up home crowd doesn't effect the players on the ice/field have never really played competitive hockey in front of a large crowd.

I'll agree that it can drive some players to fail....On the other hand, it drives some of us to succeed.

No busta and Nik, there is no scientific proof, but does it always have to come down to that with you two? It's great that you can pick up a paper and read the numbers in front of you, but personal experience should also be held valid.


It's a silly argument anyways.

I have absolutely no doubt that playing in front of a loud, boisterous crowd is a more enjoyable and exciting experience than playing in front of a small or silent crowd. The problem comes in when people equate that improved atmosphere to improved performance, because, objective measures just don't show that to be true. It may make some players feel like they're playing better, but that doesn't mean they actually are playing better.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

They almost blew it against Ott, but the big test will be Bos tonight. They are rested, we come in off a tight hard fought game, and a late flight. we have two key Injurys. a win would really impress us all.

It's not looking good for tonight nut.  Leafs have been sloppy of late.  Sure they've won 3 in a row, but in two of those 3 wins you've given up 4 goals against the Isles and Sens, not exactly powerhouse teams.  Boston is rested and ready and you know they won't be taking the game lightly since they've lost 2 straight.  This has all the makings for a Boston blow out.

But Boston isn't all that rested, as I said.  There's a cumulative effect of lots of games in a few days, it's not just back-to-backs.

Sure, but the Leafs are on 3 games in 4 nights including the back to back.  If both teams are equally tired, I still give the edge to the Bruins.  They collectively seem to have huge confidence against the Leafs, or conversely the Leafs collectively play poorly against Boston.  If the game were in Toronto I would be hopeful of a better result, but the Leafs traveling to Boston with the Bruins sitting there and waiting...the chants of "THANK YOU KESSEL!" will be in full force tonight.

Oh no doubt about that.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Those that say a jacked up home crowd doesn't effect the players on the ice/field have never really played competitive hockey in front of a large crowd.

I'll agree that it can drive some players to fail....On the other hand, it drives some of us to succeed.

No busta and Nik, there is no scientific proof, but does it always have to come down to that with you two? It's great that you can pick up a paper and read the numbers in front of you, but personal experience should also be held valid.


It's a silly argument anyways.

I have absolutely no doubt that playing in front of a loud, boisterous crowd is a more enjoyable and exciting experience than playing in front of a small or silent crowd. The problem comes in when people equate that improved atmosphere to improved performance, because, objective measures just don't show that to be true. It may make some players feel like they're playing better, but that doesn't mean they actually are playing better.

It doesn't mean they aren't playing better either.

 

[bustaheims]

It doesn't mean they aren't playing better either.

Sure, but, when objective measurements don't provide much difference between the various scenarios, it's reasonable to assume that they're probably not.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

The current 3 game win streak leaves me with little to be excited about. Defensively, commitment to intensity over a full 60 minutes and goaltending have all been substandard. On the plus side we came away with 6 points despite all of that which is the sign of a team taking the next step. I still don't feel good about things though.

I see it more as growing pains.  The team is very young with quite a few first year players or players with not much playing experience, yet they find a way to win.  It will take a bit of time for the young d-men to learn Carlyle's system, so until then, expect some instability for a while.  That is a weakness that hopefully management will resolve by making a trade for a veteran d-man who has had proven success in the past who can be a positive influence on the other d-men.  Not sure if such a player would be available at the trade deadline, and if so, can the Leafs offer assets for that player without blowing up team chemistry?

On the positive side, if you were to tell me at the beginning of this half season, at the midway point the Leafs would be tied with the Penguins, I would be asking you what happened to the Penguins, how could they be that bad?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

It doesn't mean they aren't playing better either.

Sure, but, when objective measurements don't provide much difference between the various scenarios, it's reasonable to assume that they're probably not.

Which is perhaps true. I think as a team you'd see that they don't necessarily play better because as I said, some players play better, some may play worse..some don't hear the noise at all.

 

[Champ Kind]

They almost blew it against Ott, but the big test will be Bos tonight. They are rested, we come in off a tight hard fought game, and a late flight. we have two key Injurys. a win would really impress us all.

It's not looking good for tonight nut.  Leafs have been sloppy of late.  Sure they've won 3 in a row, but in two of those 3 wins you've given up 4 goals against the Isles and Sens, not exactly powerhouse teams.  Boston is rested and ready and you know they won't be taking the game lightly since they've lost 2 straight.  This has all the makings for a Boston blow out.

I just have this feeling we pull off a win tonight.

Waiting for your post today, Nutman.

Look, I think the Leafs are a much better team than the recent past.  But to say this is the "turning point" I suppose really hinges on how you define 'turning point'.  Are they more competitive?  Yes.  Are they a playoff team?  Most likely.  Are they ready to compete with the League leaders?  Not yet.  Boston has an extra gear, the sort of things elite players can bring.  And right now the Leafs match the Bruins 85% of the way.  The extra 15% will require more talent.

As an aside, my money is on the Bruins to beat the Blackhawks in this year's Cup finals.

 

[leafplasma]

They almost blew it against Ott, but the big test will be Bos tonight. They are rested, we come in off a tight hard fought game, and a late flight. we have two key Injurys. a win would really impress us all.

It's not looking good for tonight nut.  Leafs have been sloppy of late.  Sure they've won 3 in a row, but in two of those 3 wins you've given up 4 goals against the Isles and Sens, not exactly powerhouse teams.  Boston is rested and ready and you know they won't be taking the game lightly since they've lost 2 straight.  This has all the makings for a Boston blow out.

I just have this feeling we pull off a win tonight.

Waiting for your post today, Nutman.

Look, I think the Leafs are a much better team than the recent past.  But to say this is the "turning point" I suppose really hinges on how you define 'turning point'.  Are they more competitive?  Yes.  Are they a playoff team?  Most likely.  Are they ready to compete with the League leaders?  Not yet.  Boston has an extra gear, the sort of things elite players can bring.  And right now the Leafs match the Bruins 85% of the way.  The extra 15% will require more talent.

As an aside, my money is on the Bruins to beat the Blackhawks in this year's Cup finals.

Yep, it really is quite ridiculous to say the Leafs are a good team.  They look to be a playoff team and they are worlds above what they have shown us recently.  To say they are a cup contender is just not true.  Their defensive game is vastly impoved but I think they need to tinker with the D a bit, Kostka perhaps needs a night off to see how Liles can add to the transition game.  Maybe Holzer demoted and Gardiner up to slot in to that spot.  The Leafs since the Montreal game have not looked good defensively despite a 3-2 record since that game.  D needs to be shaken up if anything to give some of these guys a rest.  We have 8 D on our roster but RC plays 6 night in and night out.  If anything with this compressed schedule, those guys need to get into some games as fresh legs and to keep them game ready in case of injuries.  It blows my mind how RC is not using his full roster.

 

[Corn Flake]

Sooo saying the Leafs are a "good team" means you think they are a "cup contender" ???