Jays Roster Discussion

[sickbeast]

The real problem for the Jays will be when both Tulo and Travis go down at the same time.  Keeping Goins would have been a nice insurance policy.

Actually what I would do if I were Atkins is trade Morales for a bag of pucks, then make Travis the DH.  That will help keep him on the field and keep his bat in the lineup.

 

[hockeyfan1]

There is one Blue Jay who is upset on the non-tender to Goins:

[tweet]936775597379829760[/tweet]

 

[Andy007]

There is one Blue Jay who is upset on the non-tender to Goins:

[tweet]936775597379829760[/tweet]

I saw this yesterday and I am still unable to figure out whether Stroman is upset that HE only found out via twitter or that Goins only found out via twitter. It has to be the latter, right?

 

[L K]

There is one Blue Jay who is upset on the non-tender to Goins:

[tweet]936775597379829760[/tweet]

I saw this yesterday and I am still unable to figure out whether Stroman is upset that HE only found out via twitter or that Goins only found out via twitter. It has to be the latter, right?

Nope.  For all Stroman's talent, he's a pretty big diva.  He holds grudges against reporters who question him.  He is in a big pissing match with Sanchez.  Stroman's one of those guys who blows up over a lot of little stuff.

As for moving on from Goins, he's not good so it isn't a big deal but I think it's important to remember that they replaced him with Gift Ngoepe.  A guy who is good defensively (like Goins) and is actually worse offensively.  So I'm not exactly sure that I understand the move from an organizational standpoint.

 

[Kin]

As for moving on from Goins, he's not good so it isn't a big deal but I think it's important to remember that they replaced him with Gift Ngoepe.  A guy who is good defensively (like Goins) and is actually worse offensively.  So I'm not exactly sure that I understand the move from an organizational standpoint.

I think it makes sense if you consider that with Travis, Tulo and Diaz around ideally Goins(or whoever) wouldn't even be on the big league club next year. So how much value does Goins have as a 30 year old AAA player?

And, yeah, the idea that you won't need a 4th middle infielder next year with the injury issues is pretty unlikely but if you do...Goins has been sub-replacement level the last two years. So if you do need a 4th middle infielder for any real playing time you probably can go out and get someone comparable for nothing so it seems like you're not really gaining or losing anything talent wise and getting a little younger.

 

[bustaheims]

I think it makes sense if you consider that with Travis, Tulo and Diaz around ideally Goins(or whoever) wouldn't even be on the big league club next year. So how much value does Goins have as a 30 year old AAA player?

Agreed. With Diaz in the fold, instead of a 4th middle infielder, the Jays need a utility player with more utility than Goins.

 

[sickbeast]

I think it makes sense if you consider that with Travis, Tulo and Diaz around ideally Goins(or whoever) wouldn't even be on the big league club next year. So how much value does Goins have as a 30 year old AAA player?

Agreed. With Diaz in the fold, instead of a 4th middle infielder, the Jays need a utility player with more utility than Goins.

The Jays already have Pearce for that.  What they need now is pitching and an outfielder.  I would also like a better DH than Morales.  I really think Travis should be the DH, in which case they should have kept Goins as their backup infielder, and just let Diaz play second base every day.

Morales should be traded.  The Jays will have to pay a portion of his salary to get rid of him but it will be worth it.

If the Jays can get a starting pitcher like Arrieta and a decent outfielder, they will have a legitimate shot at the playoffs.  From there who knows.  I'm sure they will keep Donaldson until the deadline and then make a decision.  They could wind up as buyers and then try to make another run like what AA did a couple of years ago.

 

[Kin]

I really think Travis should be the DH, in which case they should have kept Goins as their backup infielder, and just let Diaz play second base every day.

The thing about that, other than the fact that Goins is still eminently replaceable, is that if you move Travis to DH you might keep him healthy but his bat as a DH is much less valuable than it is as a reasonably defensively competent 2B. Consider that at 2.9 Travis' bWAR in 100 games in 2016 was just as valuable as Edwin Encarnacion's whole season last year hitting 38 homeruns and getting on base at a .377 clip.

So it's not the wrong move necessarily but I honestly think that if the team has even a shot at real playoff noise then they're going to need to hit the jackpot on some moves and hoping Travis can stay healthy at 2B might be one of those.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Though not confirmed in earnest,  there is speculation that Rogers Communications (the owners of the Blue Jays) may sell it's interest in the team.

The company, in a bid to shed debt, free up much-needed capital, and a general change in it's investment infrastructure, could net an estimated $1.65B in a deal to divest itself of the baseball franchise,  but would still pursue a sports programming deal.  Rogers points to their 37.5% stake in MLSE as an example of it's broadcast rights.

For more on this story:
https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/12/06/why-a-blue-jays-sale-may-make-sense-for-rogers.html

 

[L K]

Stanton to the Yankees.  With Ohtani going to the Angels that?s going to make the playoffs pretty unlikely for the Jays.  Maybe time to reconsider trading Donaldson at this point.

 

[sickbeast]

Stanton to the Yankees.  With Ohtani going to the Angels that?s going to make the playoffs pretty unlikely for the Jays.  Maybe time to reconsider trading Donaldson at this point.

Things are up in the air right now with the Jays.  They can go one of two ways, and both choices have serious consequences for the long term future of the team.  They can go for it now by adding a couple of pieces, maybe Arrieta and a good outfielder.  Or, as you say, they can trade Donaldson and rebuild.  If they go for it and fail that could be devastating for the team.  Actually even if they load up I don't think they can beat the Yankees.  So the rebuild option looks safer, particularly if Rogers wants to sell the team.  The real wild card in all this is the fans.  If they rebuild they may lose a lot of fan support, and that has its on repercussions.  I know I wouldn't want to be Atkins or Shapiro right now.  They are in an extremely difficult situation.  I hope they are able to do a decent job.  This could be a very interesting off season.

 

[bustaheims]

Things are up in the air right now with the Jays.  They can go one of two ways, and both choices have serious consequences for the long term future of the team.  They can go for it now by adding a couple of pieces, maybe Arrieta and a good outfielder.  Or, as you say, they can trade Donaldson and rebuild.  If they go for it and fail that could be devastating for the team.  Actually even if they load up I don't think they can beat the Yankees.  So the rebuild option looks safer, particularly if Rogers wants to sell the team.  The real wild card in all this is the fans.  If they rebuild they may lose a lot of fan support, and that has its on repercussions.  I know I wouldn't want to be Atkins or Shapiro right now.  They are in an extremely difficult situation.  I hope they are able to do a decent job.  This could be a very interesting off season.

That's the crux of the situation, really. At this point, you have to look at what the most realistic scenario is for the next 3-5 years. Do they have a realistic shot at a title? I'd say no. I think that window closed after the 2016 season, and their current core players are already mostly into their 30s. The immediate future does not look particularly bright, and they're not a particularly appealing destination for free agents right now (especially starting pitchers - a lot of guys wouldn't want to face that Yankees' lineup multiple times a season right now, and I can't blame them). 3-5 years from now? The Yankees will be in the position the Jays are now, and, if the rebuild starts in earnest now, the Jays should should have some quality pieces hitting the MLB roster. Maybe a full-on scorched earth tear down is not the right play (as guys like Stroman, Sanchez, etc., could still be solid contributors in 3 years), but moving out some of the older, more expensive pieces - especially high value guys like Donaldson - is the smarter move right now.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Things are up in the air right now with the Jays.  They can go one of two ways, and both choices have serious consequences for the long term future of the team.  They can go for it now by adding a couple of pieces, maybe Arrieta and a good outfielder.  Or, as you say, they can trade Donaldson and rebuild.  If they go for it and fail that could be devastating for the team.  Actually even if they load up I don't think they can beat the Yankees.  So the rebuild option looks safer, particularly if Rogers wants to sell the team.  The real wild card in all this is the fans.  If they rebuild they may lose a lot of fan support, and that has its on repercussions.  I know I wouldn't want to be Atkins or Shapiro right now.  They are in an extremely difficult situation.  I hope they are able to do a decent job.  This could be a very interesting off season.

That's the crux of the situation, really. At this point, you have to look at what the most realistic scenario is for the next 3-5 years. Do they have a realistic shot at a title? I'd say no. I think that window closed after the 2016 season, and their current core players are already mostly into their 30s. The immediate future does not look particularly bright, and they're not a particularly appealing destination for free agents right now (especially starting pitchers - a lot of guys wouldn't want to face that Yankees' lineup multiple times a season right now, and I can't blame them). 3-5 years from now? The Yankees will be in the position the Jays are now, and, if the rebuild starts in earnest now, the Jays should should have some quality pieces hitting the MLB roster. Maybe a full-on scorched earth tear down is not the right play (as guys like Stroman, Sanchez, etc., could still be solid contributors in 3 years), but moving out some of the older, more expensive pieces - especially high value guys like Donaldson - is the smarter move right now.

I agree here.  Doing things in half-measures isn't going to get the Jays very far, either in the near nor long-term.  Success requires careful planning, vision, and foresight, something this team needs to begin gaining some ground on if it even hopes to be a contender once again in the near future.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

They need to blow it up and rebuild/retool.

They have some young pieces that can be part of a great team in 2/3 years, but for now, guys like Donaldson need to go, the roster as presently constructed has no shot at winning a championship and close to no shot at the playoffs.

Get what you can for guys 28+ and see what you have in your farm system when the dust settles.

 

[sickbeast]

They need to blow it up and rebuild/retool.

They have some young pieces that can be part of a great team in 2/3 years, but for now, guys like Donaldson need to go, the roster as presently constructed has no shot at winning a championship and close to no shot at the playoffs.

Get what you can for guys 28+ and see what you have in your farm system when the dust settles.

Shapiro said today that the Blue Jays should have done a rebuild a year ago but they were afraid of what it would do to the fan base.  So take that for what it's worth.  I'm not sure what to read into it.  Either he's saying that they're still too afraid to do the rebuild, or else that it's even more urgent now seeing as they should have done it already.  It's kind of nebulous.  I'm sure that was intentional on Shapiro's behalf.

 

[Arn]

Rumours that they're talking to Sabbathia. Not sure what hints that gives at rebuild or no

 

[Kin]

My love of saying I told you so aside, I did say all this when they made those moves in the summer of 2015 and when AA left. The thing is now they should be generating some pitching/roster prospects so that hopefully you can build a real organization around guys like Guerrero.

 

[sickbeast]

Well, the bigger problem is that Shapiro and Atkins feel that they can't do their best job as president and GM without being affected by outside influences.  Shapiro basically came out and said today that he hasn't been making decisions in the absolute best interests of the team.  He has been allowing outside influences (the fanbase and possibly ownership also) to cloud his judgement.  We all know what this BS did to the Leafs for all those years.  This could be the start of the dark ages for the Blue Jays, unfortunately.

 

[Kin]

Well, the bigger problem is that Shapiro and Atkins feel that they can't do their best job as president and GM without being affected by outside influences.  Shapiro basically came out and said today that he hasn't been making decisions in the absolute best interests of the team.  He has been allowing outside influences (the fanbase and possibly ownership also) to cloud his judgement.  We all know what this BS did to the Leafs for all those years.  This could be the start of the dark ages for the Blue Jays, unfortunately.

I don't really think "ownership" qualifies as an outside interest. Sports teams are businesses, businesses are into making money. For years the Leafs were lazy because of their belief that they would be profitable no matter what. Other teams don't have that luxury and so, yes, they make decisions with one eye on the bottom line. That's not really a problem to be solved and it's not unique to the Jays.

 

[sickbeast]

My point is that Atkins and Shapiro don't have autonomy in a true sense. It's a big problem IMO.