JFJ to be next Columbus GM?

[Corn Flake]

If he was allowed to build through the draft it might not be the worst - his drafting was decent here, no?

Yes and no. I mean, as Busta mentions he managed to find some good depth players late in the rounds, but he also used his highest ever draft pick on Jiri Tlusty and basically managed to whiff with his highest draft choice every year(except Rask but he can't get too much credit there). It's certainly not a draft record I'd be excited about if I were a CBJ fan.

As Burke has pointed out though, drafting is all about the scouts.  The general manager doesn't scout all these guys and has to go on the advice on what his scouts are saying.  If everyone was on agreement on Tlusty what else could JFJ do?  I judge JFJ more about his boneheaded trades and signing like Raycroft first followed up by Toskala.

True, with the added note that GM's will outline for the scouts the type of players they want, with certain attributes taking priority over others and the scout's job is to help rank players according to those priorities, especially in early rounds. I think its one of the things we have seen change a lot under Burke, where character has become the top attribute he is looking for with work ethic second and maybe skill 3rd. 

Jason Blake and Jiri Tlusty are two great examples where skill was taken over character issues or the ability to play at a level every night to succeed. 

 

[Zee]

I still recall JFJ bringing in the Polish Prince.  Great FA signing. 

 

[Corn Flake]

I still recall JFJ bringing in the Polish Prince.  Great FA signing. 

Yet another great example.  All skill, no heart (or brains).

 

[lamajama]

I think the Belfour contract is severely under-rated in terms of absolute stupidity...

 

[CarltonTheBear]

If he was allowed to build through the draft it might not be the worst - his drafting was decent here, no?

Yes and no. I mean, as Busta mentions he managed to find some good depth players late in the rounds, but he also used his highest ever draft pick on Jiri Tlusty and basically managed to whiff with his highest draft choice every year(except Rask but he can't get too much credit there). It's certainly not a draft record I'd be excited about if I were a CBJ fan.

As Burke has pointed out though, drafting is all about the scouts.  The general manager doesn't scout all these guys and has to go on the advice on what his scouts are saying.  If everyone was on agreement on Tlusty what else could JFJ do?  I judge JFJ more about his boneheaded trades and signing like Raycroft first followed up by Toskala.

A GM tends to have more of a say in the first round or two, then he lets his scouts take over later. But yeah it's impossible to say for sure who deserves credit.

 

[Zee]

I think the Belfour contract is severely under-rated in terms of absolute stupidity...

Did he give Belfour an NTC/NMC?  I can't recall cause he was handing them out to everyone and their brother like nonna hands out candies to my kids.

 

[Kin]

As Burke has pointed out though, drafting is all about the scouts.  The general manager doesn't scout all these guys and has to go on the advice on what his scouts are saying.  If everyone was on agreement on Tlusty what else could JFJ do?  I judge JFJ more about his boneheaded trades and signing like Raycroft first followed up by Toskala.

But then it has to be consistent. If he doesn't get buried for the Tlusty pick, he's not the guy to laud for the Kulemin or Gunnar picks either. Either a GM is responsible for the successes and failures of his draft choices or he isn't.

In which case, you're back to judging JFJ solely on his FA signings/trades and he's an out and out trainwreck.

 

[Zee]

As Burke has pointed out though, drafting is all about the scouts.  The general manager doesn't scout all these guys and has to go on the advice on what his scouts are saying.  If everyone was on agreement on Tlusty what else could JFJ do?  I judge JFJ more about his boneheaded trades and signing like Raycroft first followed up by Toskala.

But then it has to be consistent. If he doesn't get buried for the Tlusty pick, he's not the guy to laud for the Kulemin or Gunnar picks either. Either a GM is responsible for the successes and failures of his draft choices or he isn't.

In which case, you're back to judging JFJ solely on his FA signings/trades and he's an out and out trainwreck.

That's true, but it's only Burke ever lauding JFJ, just because Burke is Burke and doesn't like taking cheap shots at former players/management.  I can't imagine Burke ever saying "if only JFJ didn't draft that shmuck Tlusty we'd be in better shape today!" 

 

[Kin]

That's true, but it's only Burke ever lauding JFJ, just because Burke is Burke and doesn't like taking cheap shots at former players/management.

I'm referring to the earlier comments about JFJ's draft record in this thread. But, point taken, I believe like 30% of what Burke says anyway.

 

[bustaheims]

A GM tends to have more of a say in the first round or two, then he lets his scouts take over later. But yeah it's impossible to say for sure who deserves credit.

That's true, but, at the same time, the GM has an awful lot of say as to who he employs as scouts.

 

[Zee]

That's true, but it's only Burke ever lauding JFJ, just because Burke is Burke and doesn't like taking cheap shots at former players/management.

I'm referring to the earlier comments about JFJ's draft record in this thread. But, point taken, I believe like 30% of what Burke says anyway.

Oh I know, you can't have it both ways, if you're gonna praise him for drafting Kulemin he should be held to the coals for drafting the Tlustys of the world.  But then again, the draft is usually a crap shoot and you never really know what you're getting (unless there are bona fide stars available as in the years of Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos etc).  I mean Tlusty was #13 overall, usually unless it's a deep draft anything outside the top 5 is iffy and for sure iffy out of the top 10.  You'll always see guys that go in the later rounds that were overlooked and become great players. 

Then the question becomes how much is skill at drafting versus development in your organization?  Is Detroit really that good at getting late picks who blossom or do they have an incredible development system to bring later picks around?  Probably a bit of both.

 

[Kin]

  If everyone was on agreement on Tlusty what else could JFJ do?

The other thing though is that this strikes me as kind of unrealistic. I'm pretty doubtful that, in anything other than a Sid Crosby/Alex Ovechkin sort of situation, scouts aren't going to speak in a unified voice. Especially in the case of a foreign player like Tlusty I think it's pretty doubtful that all of the scouts would have seen Tlusty, let alone all agree on him. I'm guessing that in a situation where you're picking in the middle of the round there are going to be any number of players that your scouts like and a GM, ultimately, is going to have to make the call.

 

[Zee]

  If everyone was on agreement on Tlusty what else could JFJ do?

The other thing though is that this strikes me as kind of unrealistic. I'm pretty doubtful that, in anything other than a Sid Crosby/Alex Ovechkin sort of situation, scouts aren't going to speak in a unified voice. Especially in the case of a foreign player like Tlusty I think it's pretty doubtful that all of the scouts would have seen Tlusty, let alone all agree on him. I'm guessing that in a situation where you're picking in the middle of the round there are going to be any number of players that your scouts like and a GM, ultimately, is going to have to make the call.

True but there's also a pecking order to the scouts where you have a structure with a main guy then everyone else under him.  There was probably some sort of consensus on picks.  Also JFJ didn't strike me as the sort of GM who had complete control of the team and his word was the final say.  He was a young, unproven guy at an important job and there were probably many guys offering input to his decisions.  I can see Burke as the type of GM who would totally put the hammer down and make a decision even if someone else is against it cause he has that kind gumption.

I can't believe I just used "gumption".

 

[Rebel_1812]

If he was allowed to build through the draft it might not be the worst - his drafting was decent here, no?

Yes and no. I mean, as Busta mentions he managed to find some good depth players late in the rounds, but he also used his highest ever draft pick on Jiri Tlusty and basically managed to whiff with his highest draft choice every year(except Rask but he can't get too much credit there). It's certainly not a draft record I'd be excited about if I were a CBJ fan.

rask was a barry trapp choice.  His last one before JFJ showed him the door.  Personally, I feel Barry Trapp's record would have been better over the JFJ era if he had made all of the draft choices.  He even said he would have taken Chris Stewart over Jiri Tlusty, which was the right choice in hindsight.

 

[Corn Flake]

If he was allowed to build through the draft it might not be the worst - his drafting was decent here, no?

Yes and no. I mean, as Busta mentions he managed to find some good depth players late in the rounds, but he also used his highest ever draft pick on Jiri Tlusty and basically managed to whiff with his highest draft choice every year(except Rask but he can't get too much credit there). It's certainly not a draft record I'd be excited about if I were a CBJ fan.

rask was a barry trapp choice.  His last one before JFJ showed him the door.  Personally, I feel Barry Trapp's record would have been better over the JFJ era if he had made all of the draft choices.  He even said he would have taken Chris Stewart over Jiri Tlusty, which was the right choice in hindsight.

John Doherty was the end.

 

[maplesyrup]

Thanks.  I had all but forgotten about him.

 

[the dingo ate my baby]

I give it 3 weeks before 80% of the CLB roster has no movement clauses.

 

[Tigger]

Is it unfair of me to, aside from keeping him the hell away from my team, just not give a crap about the guy?

 

[L K]

It's not like Tlusty was a bad pick at the time though.  Decent frame, had the makings of a two-way player and he was planning on coming to North America to play in the CHL to learn the North American style of play before hitting the pros.  It wasn't like they went off the board and drafted a 2nd/3rd rounder in the top 15.

Even now, we are talking about a kid who is is 23; missed half his junior year due to a significant injury; wasted his first professional season playing on the 4th line; got a proper developmental 2nd season and then was traded for a garbage prospect in the middle of his 3rd pro season. 

Tlusty's 15G 30 point pace this year is hardly setting the world on fire in Carolina but he's not embarrassing himself over there.  It wasn't a good pick, but it was hardly JFJ looking at an amazing draft and spitting on his entire scouting staff

 

[lamajama]

I think the Belfour contract is severely under-rated in terms of absolute stupidity...

Did he give Belfour an NTC/NMC?  I can't recall cause he was handing them out to everyone and their brother like nonna hands out candies to my kids.

I'm not 100% sure but I am pretty sure he did. He also gave him $18 mil over 3 years just as the CBA expired, and Belfour then immediately had his back surgery which then required the Leafs to pay his $6 mil the whole
year while recovering.