Kadri and Franson Contract Updates

[CarltonTheBear]

Qualifying Fraser making less and less sense.

The only way to justify it is to say that the Leafs weren't expecting him to get such a high contract. In which case they didn't even bother to do any homework on the matter.

They can make up for it by waiving Fraser and keeping Brennan as a 7th defenceman instead, which would save them about $325k on the cap. I just don't know if they'll make that call.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Qualifying Fraser making less and less sense.

He's the only defense man who can fight (with all due respect to Phaneuf).  Simple as that.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Qualifying Fraser making less and less sense.

He's the only defense man who can fight (with all due respect to Phaneuf).  Simple as that.

If they plan on dressing the two goon's, that's irrelevant.

 

[bustaheims]

He's the only defense man who can fight (with all due respect to Phaneuf).  Simple as that.

That's not really a positive. It means you're down a defenceman for at least 5 minutes, if not more. Defencemen shouldn't be fighting unless it's absolutely unavoidable.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Qualifying Fraser making less and less sense.

He's the only defense man who can fight (with all due respect to Phaneuf).  Simple as that.

If they plan on dressing the two goon's, that's irrelevant.

In this day and age it is a bad strategy to tie up an extra forward spot by dressing the 2nd goon forward anyway.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Qualifying Fraser making less and less sense.

He's the only defense man who can fight (with all due respect to Phaneuf).  Simple as that.

If they plan on dressing the two goon's, that's irrelevant.

In this day and age it is a bad strategy to tie up an extra forward spot by dressing the 2nd goon forward anyway.

Busta already brought this up, but how is it not a bad strategy then to tie up a more valuable position on the roster for a 2nd goon then instead?

Also, we don't even know if Fraser will be fighting anymore, what with the plate in his head and the fact that he has to wear a visor permanently now.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Qualifying Fraser making less and less sense.

He's the only defense man who can fight (with all due respect to Phaneuf).  Simple as that.

Even if that's the case, the fact he had arbitration rights tied the Leafs hands into giving him more $$ than either (a) he's worth, or (b) makes sense for the team this season in light of Kadri/Franson needing new deals.  At the end of the day, he's a bottom pairing D-man who is pretty replaceable, much more so than Franson.  However, his deal is now cutting into the available cap space - assuming they're not sending him to the minors.

 

[Champ Kind]

Qualifying Fraser making less and less sense.

He's the only defense man who can fight (with all due respect to Phaneuf).  Simple as that.

If they plan on dressing the two goon's, that's irrelevant.

In this day and age it is a bad strategy to tie up an extra forward spot by dressing the 2nd goon forward anyway.

Busta already brought this up, but how is it not a bad strategy then to tie up a more valuable position on the roster for a 2nd goon then instead?

Also, we don't even know if Fraser will be fighting anymore, what with the plate in his head and the fact that he has to wear a visor permanently now.

I just don't see how Fraser - or, frankly, his contract - can appear as a questionable signing.  Forget the fighting, Fraser brings toughness to an otherwise soft back end.  He's decent with the puck, moves it fairly well, and adds value at around 12 minutes a night. 

And as it regards fighting, and I'm going with the notion that having tough players surround skilled players affords the skill players room and confidence, then I think having a tough defenseman is a good thing.  I don't see Colton Orr being on the ice with Phil Kessel all that often, yet a guy like Fraser will take at least a few shifts with the top line at even strength.

*Edit: Just adding a response to Potvin's comment above instead of a new reply.  I'd argue that there aren't that many defensemen who play Fraser's game and, yes, while they usually aren't compensated very highly, I don't think Fraser has been paid more than he's worth.  Fraser is not Matt Carkner, he's a good hockey player.  Adam McQuaid is a good comparable, and his cap hit is about $1.6M.  I'll grant you that Deryk Engelland, at $600k, is a steal, but that's likely to change as he is (I believe) a UFA after this year.

 

[bustaheims]

He's decent with the puck, moves it fairly well, and adds value at around 12 minutes a night. 

I disagree pretty strongly with this entire sentence. He's not good with the puck and does not move it well, at all.  He made a number of gaffs with the puck all season, and in the playoffs, which often ended up with the Leafs being stuck in the defensive end for long stretches. On top of that, he's a below average skater. His willingness to put his body in front of the puck was his biggest asset, and, it wouldn't surprise me if, after having his forehead caved in, he's now a little gun-shy about it.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

*Edit: Just adding a response to Potvin's comment above instead of a new reply.  I'd argue that there aren't that many defensemen who play Fraser's game and, yes, while they usually aren't compensated very highly, I don't think Fraser has been paid more than he's worth.  Fraser is not Matt Carkner, he's a good hockey player.  Adam McQuaid is a good comparable, and his cap hit is about $1.6M.  I'll grant you that Deryk Engelland, at $600k, is a steal, but that's likely to change as he is (I believe) a UFA after this year.

He's not worth it if it comes at the expense of not having space to sign Cody Franson.  Regardless of how much he hits, he's not an impact player the way Franson can be, and it is reflected in the fact that, among the D who played for the Leafs last season, Fraser was 9th in ice time per game (only Komisarek averaged less in his 4 games) and even on the PK he was 6th.  For some players you can argue that maybe they weren't used properly or enough, but I don't see an argument for increasing Fraser's ice time.  To me, he's a slow, big body who you hope can chip the puck out when he gets it.  I think Holzer could do his job.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Qualifying Fraser making less and less sense.

He's the only defense man who can fight (with all due respect to Phaneuf).  Simple as that.

If they plan on dressing the two goon's, that's irrelevant.

In this day and age it is a bad strategy to tie up an extra forward spot by dressing the 2nd goon forward anyway.

Nobody is disputing this, but it's the world we live in right now.

McLaren and Orr are pretty much locks.

 

[pmrules]

He's decent with the puck, moves it fairly well, and adds value at around 12 minutes a night. 

I disagree pretty strongly with this entire sentence. He's not good with the puck and does not move it well, at all.  He made a number of gaffs with the puck all season, and in the playoffs, which often ended up with the Leafs being stuck in the defensive end for long stretches. On top of that, he's a below average skater. His willingness to put his body in front of the puck was his biggest asset, and, it wouldn't surprise me if, after having his forehead caved in, he's now a little gun-shy about it.

I think he is passable for a number 6 or 7 defensemen.  Of course he is going to have holes in his game - that's why he is a 6/7 and not a top 4. 

 

[Jolly good show chaps]

Morning chaps. Earlier in the summer I was reading a fair few comments from people saying it wouldn't be difficult finding a taker for Lilles with a decent return. Is trading him and re-signing Franson still a possible a solution or do we ideally want to keep both?

 

[Zee]

Morning chaps. Earlier in the summer I was reading a fair few comments from people saying it wouldn't be difficult finding a taker for Lilles with a decent return. Is trading him and re-signing Franson still a possible a solution or do we ideally want to keep both?

You have to find a willing trade partner to take Liles.  Easy to say "trade him" but is there a team that wants him and will take on his $3.8M salary? 

 

[Champ Kind]

Dollars to donuts Franson gets traded and Liles plays with Fraser.

 

[Champ Kind]

He's decent with the puck, moves it fairly well, and adds value at around 12 minutes a night. 

I disagree pretty strongly with this entire sentence. He's not good with the puck and does not move it well, at all.  He made a number of gaffs with the puck all season, and in the playoffs, which often ended up with the Leafs being stuck in the defensive end for long stretches. On top of that, he's a below average skater. His willingness to put his body in front of the puck was his biggest asset, and, it wouldn't surprise me if, after having his forehead caved in, he's now a little gun-shy about it.

Then we'll agree to disagree.  What surprised me most about Fraser last year was that, in essentially replacing Komisarek, his first pass was so much better.  I think he's much more than a chip-off-the-glass defenseman.  And, perhaps it's damning with faint praise, but to me he was able to essentially replace Luke Schenn.

Let's return to this at, say, Christmas.  I'll be objective about it and if I'm wrong I'll buy you (and Potvin) a double-double.

 

[louisstamos]

Morning chaps. Earlier in the summer I was reading a fair few comments from people saying it wouldn't be difficult finding a taker for Lilles with a decent return. Is trading him and re-signing Franson still a possible a solution or do we ideally want to keep both?

You have to find a willing trade partner to take Liles.  Easy to say "trade him" but is there a team that wants him and will take on his $3.8M salary?

Probably not - but would someone be willing to take him at $1.9 or $2.0 if we retain part of his cap hit?  That is a bit more appealing...

 

[Jolly good show chaps]

Morning chaps. Earlier in the summer I was reading a fair few comments from people saying it wouldn't be difficult finding a taker for Lilles with a decent return. Is trading him and re-signing Franson still a possible a solution or do we ideally want to keep both?

You have to find a willing trade partner to take Liles.  Easy to say "trade him" but is there a team that wants him and will take on his $3.8M salary?

I was saying that at the time and the consensus was that we still wouldn't have a problem shifting him.

 

[Kin]

Morning chaps. Earlier in the summer I was reading a fair few comments from people saying it wouldn't be difficult finding a taker for Lilles with a decent return. Is trading him and re-signing Franson still a possible a solution or do we ideally want to keep both?

You have to find a willing trade partner to take Liles.  Easy to say "trade him" but is there a team that wants him and will take on his $3.8M salary?

Probably not - but would someone be willing to take him at $1.9 or $2.0 if we retain part of his cap hit?  That is a bit more appealing...

I still don't see why that would be necessary. Liles is a really good offensive defenseman who's had a bad run of injuries/being on a team where there are other good offensive defensemen competing for PP time. Liles has a body of work beyond last year.

 

[louisstamos]

Morning chaps. Earlier in the summer I was reading a fair few comments from people saying it wouldn't be difficult finding a taker for Lilles with a decent return. Is trading him and re-signing Franson still a possible a solution or do we ideally want to keep both?

You have to find a willing trade partner to take Liles.  Easy to say "trade him" but is there a team that wants him and will take on his $3.8M salary?

Probably not - but would someone be willing to take him at $1.9 or $2.0 if we retain part of his cap hit?  That is a bit more appealing...

I still don't see why that would be necessary. Liles is a really good offensive defenseman who's had a bad run of injuries/being on a team where there are other good offensive defensemen competing for PP time. Liles has a body of work beyond last year.

True, but I stand by my original point considering only 7 teams in the league have enough cap space to take on Liles at the full value of his contract at the moment...

Now, this coming off-season when the cap goes up?  Might be a tad easier...