Leafs Bottom 6/Depth Chart

[bustaheims]

Does anyone know the status of Teemu Hartikainen, whom we aquired in the Fraser to Edmonton trade. Seems a big strapping Finn may want to join the other Finns that are now signed up. I saw him play with the Oilers in Phoenix a few years back and he made an impression with his play.

There really isn't a spot for him anymore, so, he's likely to remain in the KHL.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Does anyone know the status of Teemu Hartikainen, whom we aquired in the Fraser to Edmonton trade. Seems a big strapping Finn may want to join the other Finns that are now signed up. I saw him play with the Oilers in Phoenix a few years back and he made an impression with his play.

There really isn't a spot for him anymore, so, he's likely to remain in the KHL.

I think the Leafs were a little guilty of being too optimistic about him at the time of the trade anyway.

 

[hobarth]

It appears that the bottom 6 should be better on D and the PK than last season's.  The problem, defensively, is still in the top 6 ... who get most of the icetime.  Maybe somebody like Winnik replaces Clarkson on the second line?

But one of the biggest problems with the top six was simply about the amount of ice time they played vs. tough opponents.  Not being the absolute strongest group defensively was made worse.  Now that they have built up a rather solid looking stack of bottom six guys who are good enough to run up against other team's top lines, the heat the top six take for defensive limitations should be greatly reduced (along with their ice time).

Points well illustrated here: http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/07/29/brendan-shanahan-addresses-depth-not-core-of-maple-leafs/

ie: a 4th line of Winnik, Ashton and Bodie could handle most 2nd and 3rd lines on other teams.  Last year our 4th line couldn't handle other 4th lines.

I don't think that TO's 1st line played an excessive amount last year, if you compare JVR/Bozak/Kessel's TOI against other team's 1st line players I think you'd find that icetime for all 1st lines are about the same.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I don't think that TO's 1st line played an excessive amount last year, if you compare JVR/Bozak/Kessel's TOI against other team's 1st line players I think you'd find that icetime for all 1st lines are about the same.

Only 3 teams had 3 forwards average 20 or more minutes per game last season: Toronto, Vancouver, and Winnipeg. All non-playoff teams. And combined the JVR-Bozak-Kessel trio averaged more minutes than any other line.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

I don't think that TO's 1st line played an excessive amount last year, if you compare JVR/Bozak/Kessel's TOI against other team's 1st line players I think you'd find that icetime for all 1st lines are about the same.

Only 3 teams had 3 forwards average 20 or more minutes per game last season: Toronto, Vancouver, and Winnipeg. All non-playoff teams. And combined the JVR-Bozak-Kessel trio averaged more minutes than any other line.

Damn you, information age!! 

 

[Redleaf]

I don't think that TO's 1st line played an excessive amount last year, if you compare JVR/Bozak/Kessel's TOI against other team's 1st line players I think you'd find that icetime for all 1st lines are about the same.

Only 3 teams had 3 forwards average 20 or more minutes per game last season: Toronto, Vancouver, and Winnipeg. All non-playoff teams. And combined the JVR-Bozak-Kessel trio averaged more minutes than any other line.

Add the extra games that two thirds of that line played at the Olympics, and you could clearly see that fatigue became a factor towards the end of the season.

That should be a non issue next season.

 

[Kin]

Only 3 teams had 3 forwards average 20 or more minutes per game last season: Toronto, Vancouver, and Winnipeg. All non-playoff teams. And combined the JVR-Bozak-Kessel trio averaged more minutes than any other line.

Still though, we're talking about pretty minor differences and none of the Leafs 1st line played minutes that, individually, were out of whack for a first line player. Lots of guys played 20+ a minutes last year, played at the olympics and yet played pretty well as the season went along. I appreciate that there could be a cumulative element to fatigue but I don't think, for instance, that the reason Ryan Getzlaf managed to be effective down the stretch was because he started coasting on his linemates efforts.

 

[Frank E]

Only 3 teams had 3 forwards average 20 or more minutes per game last season: Toronto, Vancouver, and Winnipeg. All non-playoff teams. And combined the JVR-Bozak-Kessel trio averaged more minutes than any other line.

Still though, we're talking about pretty minor differences and none of the Leafs 1st line played minutes that, individually, were out of whack for a first line player. Lots of guys played 20+ a minutes last year, played at the olympics and yet played pretty well as the season went along. I appreciate that there could be a cumulative element to fatigue but I don't think, for instance, that the reason Ryan Getzlaf managed to be effective down the stretch was because he started coasting on his linemates efforts.

How close was it?

 

[Kin]

Only 3 teams had 3 forwards average 20 or more minutes per game last season: Toronto, Vancouver, and Winnipeg. All non-playoff teams. And combined the JVR-Bozak-Kessel trio averaged more minutes than any other line.

Still though, we're talking about pretty minor differences and none of the Leafs 1st line played minutes that, individually, were out of whack for a first line player. Lots of guys played 20+ a minutes last year, played at the olympics and yet played pretty well as the season went along. I appreciate that there could be a cumulative element to fatigue but I don't think, for instance, that the reason Ryan Getzlaf managed to be effective down the stretch was because he started coasting on his linemates efforts.

How close was it?

How close was what?

 

[Frank E]

Only 3 teams had 3 forwards average 20 or more minutes per game last season: Toronto, Vancouver, and Winnipeg. All non-playoff teams. And combined the JVR-Bozak-Kessel trio averaged more minutes than any other line.

Still though, we're talking about pretty minor differences and none of the Leafs 1st line played minutes that, individually, were out of whack for a first line player. Lots of guys played 20+ a minutes last year, played at the olympics and yet played pretty well as the season went along. I appreciate that there could be a cumulative element to fatigue but I don't think, for instance, that the reason Ryan Getzlaf managed to be effective down the stretch was because he started coasting on his linemates efforts.

How close was it?

How close was what?

The Kessel line minutes to the average 1st line minutes?

 

[Kin]

The Kessel line minutes to the average 1st line minutes?

I don't know. There were 94 forwards last year who averaged 18+ minutes a night and 53 who averaged 19+ a night so realistically you're probably talking about no more than a 10 percent difference between the teams who played their first lines the least and the teams that played them the most.

 

[Frank E]

The Kessel line minutes to the average 1st line minutes?

I don't know. There were 94 forwards last year who averaged 18+ minutes a night and 53 who averaged 19+ a night so realistically you're probably talking about no more than a 10 percent difference between the teams who played their first lines the least and the teams that played them the most.

Yeah, well, I guess...wouldn't the argument "Kessel was tired from playing too much" also have to take into account Kessel's relative fitness to play those minutes?

I'm not really sure I understand the point anyways...we all agree that the Leafs had a depth issue, and teams that can spread around the ice time a little more evenly are probably in a better talent position than were the Leafs, and it showed in the standings. 

So if the Leafs acquire more talent, or get better performance out of the other lines, Phil Kessel doesn't have to play as much, and will be less tired.  OK, sold. 

 

[Kin]

Yeah, well, I guess...wouldn't the argument "Kessel was tired from playing too much" also have to take into account Kessel's relative fitness to play those minutes?

I'm not really sure I understand the point anyways...we all agree that the Leafs had a depth issue, and teams that can spread around the ice time a little more evenly are probably in a better talent position than were the Leafs, and it showed in the standings. 

So if the Leafs acquire more talent, or get better performance out of the other lines, Phil Kessel doesn't have to play as much, and will be less tired.  OK, sold.

I suppose. I guess my point was wondering what the point really is at which more ice time for your best players becomes a negative. In the best years of a lot of players, and really talented scorers, they're up over 22 minutes a night. Ovechkin played 23 minutes a night the year he scored 65 goals. Ilya Kovalchuk went up over 24 minutes a night in some years. Stamkos, St. Louis, Crosby...it seems pretty natural for top scorers to be well up over 21 minutes a night.

So is cutting Kessel or JVR back down to 19 or 20 better? I don't know. I'm not coming at this with a strong opinion I genuinely don't know and think this is an area for analytics to explore. I think it's fair to say that, ideally, the team would be talented enough that guys like JVR and Bozak aren't playing as much as they are but I'm not necessarily sure that you can achieve that by giving their minutes to players who aren't as good simply in the interest of not wearing them out.

 

[Frank E]

Yeah, well, I guess...wouldn't the argument "Kessel was tired from playing too much" also have to take into account Kessel's relative fitness to play those minutes?

I'm not really sure I understand the point anyways...we all agree that the Leafs had a depth issue, and teams that can spread around the ice time a little more evenly are probably in a better talent position than were the Leafs, and it showed in the standings. 

So if the Leafs acquire more talent, or get better performance out of the other lines, Phil Kessel doesn't have to play as much, and will be less tired.  OK, sold.

I suppose. I guess my point was wondering what the point really is at which more ice time for your best players becomes a negative. In the best years of a lot of players, and really talented scorers, they're up over 22 minutes a night. Ovechkin played 23 minutes a night the year he scored 65 goals. Ilya Kovalchuk went up over 24 minutes a night in some years. Stamkos, St. Louis, Crosby...it seems pretty natural for top scorers to be well up over 21 minutes a night.

So is cutting Kessel or JVR back down to 19 or 20 better? I don't know. I'm not coming at this with a strong opinion I genuinely don't know and think this is an area for analytics to explore. I think it's fair to say that, ideally, the team would be talented enough that guys like JVR and Bozak aren't playing as much as they are but I'm not necessarily sure that you can achieve that by giving their minutes to players who aren't as good simply in the interest of not wearing them out.

I'm with you on this, but I doubt that the analytics would be able to prove anything substantial given that each player may have a different physical ability to play more or less.  I'm sure that overall physical fitness, and probably genetics to a certain degree, would play a significant part in determining a player's point of diminishing returns.

Like I said, it sure would be nice to not have to ride the first line as much, but I'm pretty sure that 29 other teams in the league feel that way too...I guess some are in a better talent position to get away with it.

 

[pmrules]

I just can't buy the "fatigue" and "olympics" reason for the collapse of the first line over the last 15 games, and i can't believe some are actually satisfied with using it as an excuse for their performance.  They were all within striking range of the other first lines in terms of playing time (we are talking about 1 - 2 shifts/game)?  Playoff teams were loaded with players that went to the Olympics.  Our best players should play more.  I just can't buy it as the biggest reason...one of the reasons...maybe, but its not the biggest.

If conditioning is a problem, the problem is (again!!!) with the players ...and we have no hope of going far in the playoffs.

 

[freer]

I just can't buy the "fatigue" and "olympics" reason for the collapse of the first line over the last 15 games, and i can't believe some are actually satisfied with using it as an excuse for their performance.  They were all within striking range of the other first lines in terms of playing time (we are talking about 1 - 2 shifts/game)?  Playoff teams were loaded with players that went to the Olympics.  Our best players should play more.  I just can't buy it as the biggest reason...one of the reasons...maybe, but its not the biggest.

If conditioning is a problem, the problem is (again!!!) with the players ...and we have no hope of going far in the playoffs.

I agree with you. IMO the only reason the team did not make the playoffs and crapped the bed during the last 15 games is because the team as a whole played like garbage, not just the first line.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Seems like the most appropriate thread for this.  I'd be down with letting him be #1 C: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/08/19/nazem-kadri-hoping-to-play-a-bigger-role-as-no-1-centre-with-toronto-maple-leafs/

 

[Fanatic]

Seems like the most appropriate thread for this.  I'd be down with letting him be #1 C: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/08/19/nazem-kadri-hoping-to-play-a-bigger-role-as-no-1-centre-with-toronto-maple-leafs/

Bozak makes Phil a better player. Yup, I said that. I do not know what it is about those two, but they are better together in spite of the fact that Bozak is not a legit # 1 center. Plus, Kadri can talk about setting up Kessel and JVR, but he is (and always will be) a guy who seems to go for the goal first and dishes off only secondarily. Bozak seems to dish off to his wings far more easily. In that way I think Bozak belongs with Phil and JVR.

Perhaps Kadri will play with Nylander in the not too distant future and he can stop worrying about his on-ice performance rather than who is # 1 and who is #2.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Seems like the most appropriate thread for this.  I'd be down with letting him be #1 C: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/08/19/nazem-kadri-hoping-to-play-a-bigger-role-as-no-1-centre-with-toronto-maple-leafs/

Bozak makes Phil a better player. Yup, I said that. I do not know what it is about those two, but they are better together in spite of the fact that Bozak is not a legit # 1 center.

What is there to back that up?  It's a pretty hard thing to say considering Kessel has played almost 3100 more 5on5 minutes with Bozak than any other C on the Leafs since Bozak entered the league.  It's hard to draw any conclusions about Kadri vs Bozak when the disparity in TOI with Kessel is so vast.

Worth considering when Bozak is with Kessel, the Leafs have scored 50.1% of the goals at 5 on 5 - when Bozak is without Kessel?  The Leafs have scored 34.3% of the goals scored. Source.

So who is making who better?  I'd wager that the better money is on Phil making Tyler better, not vice versa.

 

[pmrules]

For the sake of keeping Bozak and Kessel together...can Lupul flip to RW and we have something like this?

Booth/Santorelli  Bozak  Kessel
JVR                      Kadri  Lupul

Kind of split the scoring among the two lines...and take Clarkson off the 2nd line.