Leafs @ Capitals - Jan. 3rd, 7:00pm - TSN4, TSN 1050

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Which is all fine, but aiming sarcasm at Smith isn't.  He did exactly what he was brought in to do.

I'm pretty sure the job description of a fourth line center doesn't involve being an absolute anchor at even strength.

Outside of faceoffs he was objectively poor in every other aspect of the game.

 

[ZBBM]

Which is all fine, but aiming sarcasm at Smith isn't.  He did exactly what he was brought in to do.

I'm pretty sure the job description of a fourth line center doesn't involve being an absolute anchor at even strength.

Outside of faceoffs he was objectively poor in every other aspect of the game.

He was brought in to win faceoffs.  In fact, you could argue that if he'd been in the lineup on Sunday, and if we were in a tight points race with DET, he would have and should have been out there instead of Matthews that last minute of regulation.  Of course, as it was having Matthews get the experience was fine.  Just sayin.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

He was brought in to win faceoffs.  In fact, you could argue that if he'd been in the lineup on Sunday, and if we were in a tight points race with DET, he would have and should have been out there instead of Matthews that last minute of regulation.  Of course, as it was having Matthews get the experience was fine.  Just sayin.

I get what you're saying, my point is that faceoffs are not as valuable as some make them out to be and any value they do have is absolutely negated if you're a tranwreck everywhere else.

 

[bustaheims]

I get what you're saying, my point is that faceoffs are not as valuable as some make them out to be and any value they do have is absolutely negated if you're a tranwreck everywhere else.

Yup. The most important thing about winning a faceoff is about what you do with the puck afterward (which, I mean, is a pretty obvious statement). When you're on the PK, and all you need to do is dump the puck down the ice, you don't need a particularly robust skill set - and Smith is fine there, which is why he received heavy PK time. At even strength, on the other hand, where you need more of a deft touch when dumping the puck or the ability to move the puck past the redline through skating/passing, Smith was a liability.

 

[herman]

Which is all fine, but aiming sarcasm at Smith isn't.  He did exactly what he was brought in to do.

Wait, is sarcasm no longer a desired trait in posting on the Internets? *Shakes fist at 2016

My gentle scorn is largely for the idea/philosophy/tradition that such players are not just a byproduct of a distribution curve of skill in a league of finite number of active players, but that they are integral and necessary contributors to long-term success, at the expense of other candidates. It might be hard to differentiate, but I have nothing against Smith and Martin as players and as people. I'd just prefer them to be on other teams.

WIGWAL and bustaheims have outlined exactly why.

Don't even get me started on this:
https://twitter.com/ChartingHockey/status/815697363167838208
www.twitter.com/ChartingHockey/status/815697363167838208

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

That's my biggest gripe with Polak.  I don't deny that he can be an effective penalty killer, and that he's physical and can block shots.  But at even strength, where something like 80% of Polak's ice time is, he turns so many instances of possession into unnecessary icings it drives me crazy.  I read someone somewhere else refer to it as "he plays every shift as if it's a PK" and it's kind of true - if there is no simple short pass to a forward with no pressure he will often just chip it off the glass down the ice or dump it down the ice, giving up the puck and in the case of an icing, leading to more defensive zone time.  It's no wonder his possession stats don't look nice, he isn't really capable of holding onto the puck and making plays with it at the level you would like to see.

 

[Highlander]

So Ben Smith was the only thing standing between this team and greatness. Who'd have guessed?

Babcock has adjusted to really minimize his use of the fourth line, i.e. more minutes for Matthews, Brown, Hyman, Kadri, Nylander, Marner, JvR, Bozak, Komarov, which usually means more effective use of ice time.

Martin hasn't played over 8 minutes since December 10. Smith, in that timeframe until his injury, was hovering at ~10-12 minutes, the difference being PK time.

With Gauthier, Soshnikov actually has someone else to pass the puck to that can hold on to it. There were some good shifts in the outdoor game where they pinned the other 4th line.

Which is all fine, but aiming sarcasm at Smith isn't.  He did exactly what he was brought in to do.

The nice thing is he had his 12 1/2 minutes of Fame, which is more than most get

 

[ZBBM]

No offense herman, I take you at your word but all I can say is that it didn't come across that way.  Smith is pretty much what you (less the sarcasms in bold) called him: a stalwart defensive centre and noted penalty kill specialist.  And then you made it sound like the recent PK success is entirely because he's gone.

Look, I am not arguing that Smith is the greatest option or that you can't have an effective kill w/o him -- obviously they've proven they can, and if they can have a good PK with more versatile players, then so long Smith (or anybody else who doesn't measure up).  What bugs me is when people start harping on  players at the bottom of the roster.  It just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[bustaheims]

That's my biggest gripe with Polak.  I don't deny that he can be an effective penalty killer, and that he's physical and can block shots.  But at even strength, where something like 80% of Polak's ice time is, he turns so many instances of possession into unnecessary icings it drives me crazy.  I read someone somewhere else refer to it as "he plays every shift as if it's a PK" and it's kind of true - if there is no simple short pass to a forward with no pressure he will often just chip it off the glass down the ice or dump it down the ice, giving up the puck and in the case of an icing, leading to more defensive zone time.  It's no wonder his possession stats don't look nice, he isn't really capable of holding onto the puck and making plays with it at the level you would like to see.

Yeah, and teams can't really afford to have a specialist like that on the blueline. You can kind of get away with it up-front by stashing them on the 4th line and giving them limited minutes - though, it's still far from ideal - but, it's too taxing on your team to have to hide a defenceman that provides negative value at even strength.

 

[ZBBM]

That's my biggest gripe with Polak.  I don't deny that he can be an effective penalty killer, and that he's physical and can block shots.  But at even strength, where something like 80% of Polak's ice time is, he turns so many instances of possession into unnecessary icings it drives me crazy.  I read someone somewhere else refer to it as "he plays every shift as if it's a PK" and it's kind of true - if there is no simple short pass to a forward with no pressure he will often just chip it off the glass down the ice or dump it down the ice, giving up the puck and in the case of an icing, leading to more defensive zone time.  It's no wonder his possession stats don't look nice, he isn't really capable of holding onto the puck and making plays with it at the level you would like to see.

Yeah, and teams can't really afford to have a specialist like that on the blueline. You can kind of get away with it up-front by stashing them on the 4th line and giving them limited minutes - though, it's still far from ideal - but, it's too taxing on your team to have to hide a defenceman that provides negative value at even strength.

Why isn't Corrado playing instead then?

 

[Frank E]

Is it possible/plausible that Smith or Polak are more suited to grinding out playoff games every other night?

I know we don't really remember playoff hockey, but wouldn't it be fair to say that it's a little more physically grinding, and that guys that can dole out the physicality that can take it's toll over a series could be useful in that respect?

 

[bustaheims]

What bugs me is when people start harping on  players at the bottom of the roster.  It just rubs me the wrong way.

The thing is that the difference between winning and losing a playoff series/making or missing the playoffs/home-ice/etc. can easily be those players at the bottom of the roster. A few goals here and there over the season, or a couple over a playoff series is often enough to make that difference. On top of that, they're also the easiest players on the roster to replace, which is why there's a lot of focus on them. It's a very legitimate question to ask why the team isn't addressing its most easy to solve problems, and, for a lot of us, when simple issues go unresolved, it's much more grating than when complicated ones do.

 

[bustaheims]

Why isn't Corrado playing instead then?

Because Babcock likes to have a guy like Polak, I suppose. He's the decision maker. That doesn't mean he's making the best possible decisions, regardless of his experience or previous accomplishments.

 

[bustaheims]

Is it possible/plausible that Smith or Polak are more suited to grinding out playoff games every other night?

I know we don't really remember playoff hockey, but wouldn't it be fair to say that it's a little more physically grinding, and that guys that can dole out the physicality that can take it's toll over a series could be useful in that respect?

A guy who can help the team control the puck more would be much more useful, even in a more physical playoff series.

And, most of us watch enough playoff hockey to remember exactly what it's like. No matter the situation, having guys on the ice that lead to the other team having the puck more often than your team - and, frequently in the offensive zone - is a bad thing, regardless of what other attributes they bring. Nothing helps your team win more than keeping the puck away from the other team.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What bugs me is when people start harping on  players at the bottom of the roster.  It just rubs me the wrong way.

The thing is that the difference between winning and losing a playoff series/making or missing the playoffs/home-ice/etc. can easily be those players at the bottom of the roster. A few goals here and there over the season, or a couple over a playoff series is often enough to make that difference. On top of that, they're also the easiest players on the roster to replace, which is why there's a lot of focus on them. It's a very legitimate question to ask why the team isn't addressing its most easy to solve problems, and, for a lot of us, when simple issues go unresolved, it's much more grating than when complicated ones do.

Someone should write a book on these little things adding up to success, it's like an extra 2%...

 

[wnc096]

That's my biggest gripe with Polak.  I don't deny that he can be an effective penalty killer, and that he's physical and can block shots.  But at even strength, where something like 80% of Polak's ice time is, he turns so many instances of possession into unnecessary icings it drives me crazy.  I read someone somewhere else refer to it as "he plays every shift as if it's a PK" and it's kind of true - if there is no simple short pass to a forward with no pressure he will often just chip it off the glass down the ice or dump it down the ice, giving up the puck and in the case of an icing, leading to more defensive zone time.  It's no wonder his possession stats don't look nice, he isn't really capable of holding onto the puck and making plays with it at the level you would like to see.

He handles it like a grenade...in the offensive zone he shoots it as soon as he touches the puck.  Its why he smoked the ref in the knee that game, his auto reaction is get rid of the puck ASAP...which is effective when killing penalties I suppose.

 

[bustaheims]

Someone should write a book on these little things adding up to success, it's like an extra 2%...

;D

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Is it possible/plausible that Smith or Polak are more suited to grinding out playoff games every other night?

I know we don't really remember playoff hockey, but wouldn't it be fair to say that it's a little more physically grinding, and that guys that can dole out the physicality that can take it's toll over a series could be useful in that respect?

A guy who can help the team control the puck more would be much more useful, even in a more physical playoff series.

And, most of us watch enough playoff hockey to remember exactly what it's like. No matter the situation, having guys on the ice that lead to the other team having the puck more often than your team - and, frequently in the offensive zone - is a bad thing, regardless of what other attributes they bring. Nothing helps your team win more than keeping the puck away from the other team.

Yeah I feel like a better player who can make plays would actually serve to tax the other team more over time as they would spend time chasing the game more than I think they would with a more traditional 'stay-at-home' type like Polak.  If the end result is more time in your own end then you are the team that is going to be gassed in a physical series first.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Is it possible/plausible that Smith or Polak are more suited to grinding out playoff games every other night?

I know we don't really remember playoff hockey, but wouldn't it be fair to say that it's a little more physically grinding, and that guys that can dole out the physicality that can take it's toll over a series could be useful in that respect?

Granted he was playing against the best team in the league, but I don't even need to look up any stats to tell you that Polak was easily the worst player playing in the Stanley Cup Finals. I remember even the commentators bringing up how much the Pens were taking advantage of him.

 

[herman]

No offense herman, I take you at your word but all I can say is that it didn't come across that way.  Smith is pretty much what you (less the sarcasms in bold) called him: a stalwart defensive centre and noted penalty kill specialist.  And then you made it sound like the recent PK success is entirely because he's gone.

Look, I am not arguing that Smith is the greatest option or that you can't have an effective kill w/o him -- obviously they've proven they can, and if they can have a good PK with more versatile players, then so long Smith (or anybody else who doesn't measure up).  What bugs me is when people start harping on  players at the bottom of the roster.  It just rubs me the wrong way.

I take no offense and you are as entitled to your views. Sorry if my views rub you the wrong way, but I don't know what you have issue with in what I said.

This is exactly what I was saying: our PK is better without Smith and Martin, and by extension, the team at even strength would be better too. My method of persuasion was to juxtapose sports journalism tropes that describe them with what their on-ice performance (or in this case, the team's performance with them off-ice) says about them.

Is your issue with:
a) my thesis that the team is better without Smith (and by extension Hunlak, and Martin sort of)
b) my rhetorical device of 'juxtaposition of the incongruous'
c) my numerical examples used to backup the thesis
d) my harping about players that eat up 17% of each game playing in reverse

I am open to changing my methods to get my point across more smoothly, without emotional friction.