Leafs @ Coyotes - Nov. 4th, 9:00pm - SNO, TSN 1050

[Highlander]

I think we could have this argument forever about defensemen moved to forward.  One of the best cases is Red Kelley.  No doubt Gardiner has terrific offensive instincts which make us wonder what he could do on the wing,  but does tend to have more than his share of brain cramps on D, like last night.
The only thing attractive about such a move is that you have an option to move him back in case of injury to  a D man during a game?like we used to do with White and to some extent Belak.

 

[mc]

Leafs came out flat. FLAT! They started to show up mid third period. Too late. Where have we seen this before?

Squandered a two man advantage early in the first. That's a killer too. Get a goal there and you put a dagger into a very fragile team.

 

[Frank E]

Unreasonable standards! He earns over 4 mil dollars a year. I don't think so. Again this is my opinion. Doesnt have to be anyone elses.

Your standards are unreasonable regardless of his salary. No player is mistake free and no player should ever tackle another when they make a mistake. There isn't a single player in the league that would meet the standards you hold Gardiner to.

I find it surprising that so many come to Gardiner's defense when he makes a big boner, yet it's open season on Clarkson whenever he screws up.

Gardiner certainly makes his fair share of mistakes, something I'm sure most of us would like to see less of.  I find it interesting that a guy like Gunner was never really blasted much around here when he was a Leaf...perhaps it's because even though he didn't show the flashes of pretty plays that Gardiner makes, he didn't make the glaring errors with the frequency that Gardiner seems to.

 

[bustaheims]

I find it surprising that so many come to Gardiner's defense when he makes a big boner, yet it's open season on Clarkson whenever he screws up.

Well, part of that is that, last season, all Clarkson did was screw up. He didn't really provide any positives. There was nothing to defend. This season, there's been a lot less Clarkson bashing, because he has provided positive contributions.

It's also how Gardiner is being criticized here. He's being held to an impossible standard. No one is saying he never makes mistakes. Did he screw up on that pass? Yes, obviously. Did that one play in the 1st period cost the Leafs the game? Of course not. It was one play and there was plenty time for the team to make up for it. The fact that they couldn't isn't on Gardiner alone. It's on all of them.

I also think the extent to which certain defencemen make "glaring errors" is grossly overstated. There are a couple guys on the team that some people have keyed in on, and Gardiner is one of them. When he does make a mistake, it gets magnified people a bunch of people jump on it, and, subsequently, a number of us come to his defence to try to balance things out. He doesn't make the number of glaring errors that he gets accused of making.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Unreasonable standards! He earns over 4 mil dollars a year. I don't think so. Again this is my opinion. Doesnt have to be anyone elses.

Your standards are unreasonable regardless of his salary. No player is mistake free and no player should ever tackle another when they make a mistake. There isn't a single player in the league that would meet the standards you hold Gardiner to.

I find it surprising that so many come to Gardiner's defense when he makes a big boner, yet it's open season on Clarkson whenever he screws up.

Gardiner certainly makes his fair share of mistakes, something I'm sure most of us would like to see less of.  I find it interesting that a guy like Gunner was never really blasted much around here when he was a Leaf...perhaps it's because even though he didn't show the flashes of pretty plays that Gardiner makes, he didn't make the glaring errors with the frequency that Gardiner seems to.

Maybe because comparing Gardiner to Clarkson would be sort of like going from prime rib to?I don?t know?weird brother of prime rib.

It's the same reason guys like Rielly, Kadri, Kessel, JVR, Bernier, Reimer etc will get more benefit of the doubt.  There's remaining upside there, people want to see them grow as Leafs and get better as Leafs, none of them are grossly overpaid for what they bring, none of them had as poor of a season as Clarkson, etc.

I think most of the criticism of Clarkson has been in the context of how long the team will be saddled with his contract and less on individual instances of him screwing up.  Last year it was basically shocking how little he contributed, maybe even funny.

Gardiner's been rightly criticized (game vs. Boston) and in some cases not rightly criticized.  I do think there is a tendency to criticize players of his style vs. players far less skilled but who bang and crash. 

But that's the reality - players who want the puck on their stick, are not afraid to make plays with it, want to make the plays, will inevitably turn over the puck (and sometimes in grand fashion).  Mirtle touches on it in that article, the focus on the big mistakes rather than the entire process.

 

[Frank E]

Maybe because comparing Gardiner to Clarkson would be sort of like going from prime rib to?I don?t know?weird brother of prime rib.

Clarkson makes $5.25 and Gardiner $4.05.  They're relatively close in terms of the team's cap allocation.  I don't think comparing their contributions/detriments is bananas.

It's the same reason guys like Rielly, Kadri, Kessel, JVR, Bernier, Reimer etc will get more benefit of the doubt.  There's remaining upside there, people want to see them grow as Leafs and get better as Leafs, none of them are grossly overpaid for what they bring, none of them had as poor of a season as Clarkson, etc.

That's kind of my point though.  He's not on his ELC, he's on to his big-boy contract, and is being paid to produce at a healthy rate.  He's not producing right now, and that's probably why people are being critical of him when he emphasizes his lack of production with a blatant give-away. 

I think most of the criticism of Clarkson has been in the context of how long the team will be saddled with his contract and less on individual instances of him screwing up.  Last year it was basically shocking how little he contributed, maybe even funny.

I think you're probably right, but I also think that Gardiner's 5 year deal is a pretty large chunk of change for a guy without a track record.  They're banking on potential with Gardiner, and I certainly hope it works out to the Leafs' favour.  Maybe some were willing to be a little more forgiving of an ELC-money Gardiner than they are of a $4mil Gardiner.   

Gardiner's been rightly criticized (game vs. Boston) and in some cases not rightly criticized.  I do think there is a tendency to criticize players of his style vs. players far less skilled but who bang and crash. 

I agree with that.

But that's the reality - players who want the puck on their stick, are not afraid to make plays with it, want to make the plays, will inevitably turn over the puck (and sometimes in grand fashion).  Mirtle touches on it in that article, the focus on the big mistakes rather than the entire process.

...But I don't agree with that.  I don't think that big-time brain-cramps are the result of being good at carrying the puck.  I think boners are boners, and some players are smarter than others with minimizing them.  I've always maintained that I think Gardiner has all the talent to be a Norris candidate point producer, but I think he lacks the brains/hockey IQ.

 

[Leaflifer]

Kaberle used to make some boner passses when he was starting out. I remember Yushkevich being out of position a lot too when he was learning. He turned that around in a big way.

Wonder if Gardiner will be one of those, or the other kind.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Just to add, I read the article and he mentions he re-watched the first 26:00 of the game.  I think that's up to the point it became 3-0.

Thanks, missed that. Over a dump-in per minute. That seems insanely high.

And insanely frustrating to watch as a fan, given that the Leafs have so much speed, and a pretty good amount of skill, up front.  This game just felt doomed from the start. 

I look forward to seeing Percy draw back in as he was pretty good at using the middle of the ice to transition play in the other direction so they could get through the neutral zone with speed.  Last night looked like the Leafs of old.  Pucks up the boards in their own end, and dump-ins in the offensive zone that they're too late getting to.

 

[Britishbulldog]

...But I don't agree with that.  I don't think that big-time brain-cramps are the result of being good at carrying the puck.  I think boners are boners, and some players are smarter than others with minimizing them.  I've always maintained that I think Gardiner has all the talent to be a Norris candidate point producer, but I think he lacks the brains/hockey IQ.

That is what I wrote to my oldest son a couple of days ago.  Gardiner has huge offensive upside but I don't think he has the hockey IQ to use it to its full potential.  Rielly is 4 years younger and already seems to play a more complete game with less mistakes.

 

[Strangelove]

...But I don't agree with that.  I don't think that big-time brain-cramps are the result of being good at carrying the puck.  I think boners are boners, and some players are smarter than others with minimizing them.  I've always maintained that I think Gardiner has all the talent to be a Norris candidate point producer, but I think he lacks the brains/hockey IQ.

That is what I wrote to my oldest son a couple of days ago.  Gardiner has huge offensive upside but I don't think he has the hockey IQ to use it to its full potential.  Rielly is 4 years younger and already seems to play a more complete game with less mistakes.

There's not much to say to that because it's a matter of pure perception and isn't borne out by the stats. Gardiner's "hockey IQ", if you want to call it that, is light years ahead of other Leaf defenders based on his ability to anticipate the play, create space, and maintain control. Those qualities indicate an intelligence that can't easily be taught. The fact that he fans on the puck once in a while does nothing to change that.

And to say that Rielly plays a more complete game at this stage is ludicrous. Both the offensive and defensive aspects of his game are very much a work in prioress. He's going to have to get physically stronger before he can became any kind of an impact player, though he may be on his way there.

 

[2badknees]

That is what I wrote to my oldest son a couple of days ago.  Gardiner has huge offensive upside but I don't think he has the hockey IQ to use it to its full potential.  Rielly is 4 years younger and already seems to play a more complete game with less mistakes.

I think that Reilly is definitely going to be a different kind of defenceman; more of a north/south player, even so, I'm wary of people overrating him the same way that people on here overrate Gardiner. I remember Ray Ferraro at numerous times this season telling everyone on the air that Reilly was already Toronto's best defenseman.

Its like fans and management seem to be under the impression that the sins of the past (giving up on players, trading youth) are to be atoned for by completely overrating current youth in the system (Kadri, Gardiner, Reilly, Holland, Nylander etc). Part of of comes from being in the Toronto market, where there's so much 24/7 press on the leafs and so many readers, but honestly, some folks need to give their heads a shake, and look at the class of rookies and 1st/2nd/3rd year players around the league, and realize that the Leafs have nothing near the pedigree on many other teams.

 

[Bender]

That is what I wrote to my oldest son a couple of days ago.  Gardiner has huge offensive upside but I don't think he has the hockey IQ to use it to its full potential.  Rielly is 4 years younger and already seems to play a more complete game with less mistakes.

I think that Reilly is definitely going to be a different kind of defenceman; more of a north/south player, even so, I'm wary of people overrating him the same way that people on here overrate Gardiner. I remember Ray Ferraro at numerous times this season telling everyone on the air that Reilly was already Toronto's best defenseman.

Its like fans and management seem to be under the impression that the sins of the past (giving up on players, trading youth) are to be atoned for by completely overrating current youth in the system (Kadri, Gardiner, Reilly, Holland, Nylander etc). Part of of comes from being in the Toronto market, where there's so much 24/7 press on the leafs and so many readers, but honestly, some folks need to give their heads a shake, and look at the class of rookies and 1st/2nd/3rd year players around the league, and realize that the Leafs have nothing near the pedigree on many other teams.

I'm not sure who's overrating Kadri to be honest with you. He spent quite a while in the minors when everyone was clamouring for him to be up.

Rielly has been really good though. I don't think Ferraro is saying these things just to say them, I think he's a pretty good color commentator and doesn't strike me as that kind of guy.

 

[moon111]

Saying Reilly is the best might be a bigger indicator that the rest suck.

 

[Highlander]

Every member of the Leafs would agree that Reilly is already the strongest player on the bench. He is a brick shithouse.  Can do much higher lifts than the rest of the squad.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Every member of the Leafs would agree that Reilly is already the strongest player on the bench. He is a brick shithouse.  Can do much higher lifts than the rest of the squad.

If you watched him two nights ago, he had no problems containing Shane Doan along the boards a few times.  That is a helluva guy to try and pin to the boards.  So your comment, while possibly being sarcastic (I can't tell) wouldn't be surprising.  Not bad for a 20 yr old.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Every member of the Leafs would agree that Reilly is already the strongest player on the bench. He is a brick shithouse.  Can do much higher lifts than the rest of the squad.

If you watched him two nights ago, he had no problems containing Shane Doan along the boards a few times.  That is a helluva guy to try and pin to the boards.  So your comment, while possibly being sarcastic (I can't tell) wouldn't be surprising.  Not bad for a 20 yr old.

He's playing at 215lbs. You really wouldn't guess it watching him skate but yeah he's got good size/strength.

 

[Highlander]

Coco,no sarcasm was responding to Stranglove saying "He's going to have to get physically stronger before he can became any kind of an impact player, though he may be on his way there".
I was simple being contrary with the facts..