Leafs jersey number conventions?

[Bullfrog]

I understand your point of view, but I just don't think it's necessary to have such an honour. It's not particularly meaningful to me that current players can't wear the number of an exceptional player that played 40 years before I was even borne.

I think it matters to an extent. When I think of #27 on the Leafs the first player who genuinely comes to mind is Shayne Corson. When I think of 21, I think of JVR. 14, to me, is Matt Stajan. If you grew up watching Sittler or Salming or Keon that would probably strike you as nutty but I'm not going to associate guys with a number if they're before my time unless there's no one else to associate with that number by virtue of it being retired. Retiring a number preserves that identity. #3 on the Yankees, #9 on the Red Wings, #16 on the 49ers, it's impossible to associate those numbers with anyone other than the guys who made them famous. I think there's a value in that, preserving that history.

And, I think, in a way that's inarguable. Even you say that there's a question of respect involved with wearing the number of a great player shortly after he gives it up. You can see Kadri say that he'd be reluctant to do so in his quote above. To not retire numbers while acknowledging that, to me, seems to be a half-measure.

I just don't see the exlusivity of the number as adding much, if any, more value to the memory of the player. While you argue that people would only associate those numbers with the honour, I'm not sure how true that is. I mean, I could probably name about 1/2 of the honoured players off the top of my head, but probably could only name 1/4 or less of the numbers.

I suppose, in the end, the sweater number really means little to me and I don't think it helps me to remember or value the honoured players at all.

 

[Kin]

I mean, I could probably name about 1/2 of the honoured players off the top of my head, but probably could only name 1/4 or less of the numbers.

But I think that sort of proves my point. The honoured numbers and names all sort of run together because there's no permanence and some of the numbers are "honoured" for multiple players. On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem remembering #5 for Barilko and #6 for Bailey. If I think of either number for the Leafs I can only think of those two guys(yes, yes, Ron Ellis).

 

[Bullfrog]

I think it simply demonstrates my ignorance of the past history of the Leafs, similarly to what Kadri demonstrated.

 

[bustaheims]

Count me in as liking the Leafs choice to not retire numbers. I prefer to see the team keep the traditional hockey numbers in circulation than wind up like the Habs who have a bunch of guys wearing numbers that just look absurd. That being said, I like to think that the numbers that have been honoured should be earned rather than just handed out. You don't get to wear 13 or 17 or 27 or any of the others just because you've worn them before - you have to be proven to be a certain calibre of player.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I think the Leafs do it the right way because you don't want to end up like the Habs or the Yankees who have like 15 retired numbers apiece. Give it another century and you'll have to wear a triple digit number to play for them!

 

[Kin]

Count me in as liking the Leafs choice to not retire numbers. I prefer to see the team keep the traditional hockey numbers in circulation than wind up like the Habs who have a bunch of guys wearing numbers that just look absurd.

I know, right? I mean, 81, 53, 55...the Habs are crazy with that stuff. 

That being said, I like to think that the numbers that have been honoured should be earned rather than just handed out. You don't get to wear 13 or 17 or 27 or any of the others just because you've worn them before - you have to be proven to be a certain calibre of player.

Two things though. One, that essentially retires them anyway. You'd essentially be limiting them to established free agents, guys brought over in trades or guys who want to change their number mid-way through their career.

Two, I don't see how you could ever really do that and have it not lead to problems. I don't think the Leafs should have started their relationship with JvR by saying he wasn't special enough to wear 21 or, if he is, explaining to the next guy who wanted to wear 7 that he wasn't special enough but JvR was.

 

[Kin]

I think the Leafs do it the right way because you don't want to end up like the Habs or the Yankees who have like 15 retired numbers apiece.

No, no. Trust me. The two franchises you'd very much want to end up like are the Habs or the Yankees.

Something tells me their fans aren't exactly complaining about the abundance of great players they've had over the years, the championships it's brought them and the terribleness of high numbers.

 

[Zee]

I think the Leafs do it the right way because you don't want to end up like the Habs or the Yankees who have like 15 retired numbers apiece.

No, no. Trust me. The two franchises you'd very much want to end up like are the Habs or the Yankees.

Something tells me their fans aren't exactly complaining about the abundance of great players they've had over the years, the championships it's brought them and the terribleness of high numbers.

Where does it end? If they want to honor recent players are they going to retire their numbers too? Or you slight the more recent players and say 'sorry no number retirement for you Mr. Koivu". Once you start retiring numbers you have to keep doing it.

 

[BrownRolo]

I prefer to see the team keep the traditional hockey numbers in circulation than wind up like the Habs who have a bunch of guys wearing numbers that just look absurd.

I've never understood this. How can a number look absurd? Why does 92 look so bad but 18 look so good? Is this just an NHL thing?

 

[Kin]

Where does it end? If they want to honor recent players are they going to retire their numbers too? Or you slight the more recent players and say 'sorry no number retirement for you Mr. Koivu". Once you start retiring numbers you have to keep doing it.

No, no you don't. Look, again, at the Blue Jays. The Blue Jays have a bunch of guys who they've honoured, had ceremonies for and marked their number up on the decks but they've reserved retiring a number for Robbie Alomar when he was acknowledged as one of the all-time greats upon his induction into Cooperstown. You can have both. Which, you know, is what the Maple Leafs do have. They have retired numbers.

But even if that weren't true would it be the worst thing in the world to have standards like that? To tell Saku Koivu and his 790 career points that he maybe doesn't belong with Richard, Beliveau and Dryden? Or to tell Bernie Williams that the Yankees only retire numbers for guys like Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio and Babe Ruth? It wouldn't mean that you couldn't still have touching pre-game ceremonies for the likes of Mark Osborne and Alyn McCauley, just that some things would be reserved for the immortals.

 

[rdowdall]

Where does it end? If they want to honor recent players are they going to retire their numbers too? Or you slight the more recent players and say 'sorry no number retirement for you Mr. Koivu". Once you start retiring numbers you have to keep doing it.

No, no you don't. Look, again, at the Blue Jays. The Blue Jays have a bunch of guys who they've honoured, had ceremonies for and marked their number up on the decks but they've reserved retiring a number for Robbie Alomar when he was acknowledged as one of the all-time greats upon his induction into Cooperstown. You can have both. Which, you know, is what the Maple Leafs do have. They have retired numbers.

But even if that weren't true would it be the worst thing in the world to have standards like that? To tell Saku Koivu and his 790 career points that he maybe doesn't belong with Richard, Beliveau and Dryden? Or to tell Bernie Williams that the Yankees only retire numbers for guys like Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio and Babe Ruth? It wouldn't mean that you couldn't still have touching pre-game ceremonies for the likes of Mark Osborne and Alyn McCauley, just that some things would be reserved for the immortals.

Exactly.  When you retire a number it's because that person brought something to your team that is symbolized by that number.  When you think of a sweater wearing that number, it is instantly tied to the player that wore that number.  You retire that number.  I do think that 14 should be retired.  This may be blasphemy, but I might have a hard time with 17, 93, and 13.  Clark just because of the injuries.  He played with heart and had loads of talent, I will give him that, but I wanted more from the Leafs only 1st overall pick.  Gilmour really was only here for 6 years.  If you are going to retire a number, I think they should be with the team a little longer.  13 is about the only one that I think that a case can be made where it should be retired.

 

[Peter D.]

I think the Leafs do it the right way because you don't want to end up like the Habs or the Yankees who have like 15 retired numbers apiece. Give it another century and you'll have to wear a triple digit number to play for them!

I personally love seeing the Habs and Yankees having so many numbers retired.  Speaks of the history of the franchise. 

I'd like to see the Leafs retire numbers for their greats.  For guys like Keon, considered by some as the all-time greatest Leaf, and Sundin, the franchise's leading scorer/point getter, I'd rather not see someone wear their number down the road.  I wasn't around for Keon, but I'd understand if an older fan cringed seeing Matt Stajan and Jonas Hoglund sporting "his" number.

 

[Rebel_1812]

if you don't like the retiring of 99 shouldn't your beef be with bettman and the nhl and not the leafs.

No because the NHL wouldn't have the power to tell the Leafs to retire anything. They could float the idea but the Leafs and all of the other teams would have had to agree.

you sniper quoted out the important part.  The leafs wouldn't have a veto.  So yeah the NHL could tell them what to do if all the other teams thought it was a good idea.  Remember this isn't like another team moving into leafs territory.  There is no veto.

 

[Britishbulldog]

I think the honour system is much better than retirement of numbers.

 

[Kin]

you sniper quoted out the important part.  The leafs wouldn't have a veto.  So yeah the NHL could tell them what to do if all the other teams thought it was a good idea.  Remember this isn't like another team moving into leafs territory.  There is no veto.

No, because the NHL doesn't have the power, regardless of how many member clubs agree, to tell any team what numbers to retire. There is no veto because there is no vote.  Even if all 29 other clubs agreed the NHL couldn't mandate that the Leafs wear different uniforms or have a different nickname. Certain things aren't subject to majority vote, this is one.

 

[Britishbulldog]

you sniper quoted out the important part.  The leafs wouldn't have a veto.  So yeah the NHL could tell them what to do if all the other teams thought it was a good idea.  Remember this isn't like another team moving into leafs territory.  There is no veto.

No, because the NHL doesn't have the power, regardless of how many member clubs agree, to tell any team what numbers to retire. There is no veto because there is no vote.  Even if all 29 other clubs agreed the NHL couldn't mandate that the Leafs wear different uniforms or have a different nickname. Certain things aren't subject to majority vote, this is one.

Are you sure about that one Nik?  I remember NYR thinking that the NHL couldn't tell them how the NYR website should look like and went to court with the NHL and lost.  I believe it was due to the NHL owning all the rights and the various clubs simply buying into the system.  I can't remember completely and can't verify it as I have meetings all afternoon and have to look engaged....

 

[Kin]

I think the honour system is much better than retirement of numbers.

So the Leafs shouldn't have retired those three numbers?

 

[Kin]

Are you sure about that one Nik?  I remember NYR thinking that the NHL couldn't tell them how the NYR website should look like and went to court with the NHL and lost.  I believe it was due to the NHL owning all the rights and the various clubs simply buying into the system.  I can't remember completely and can't verify it as I have meetings all afternoon and have to look engaged....

I can't prove a negative or anything but here's a link to both the NHL's constitution and by-laws:

http://www.bizofhockey.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=236&Itemid=75

If you can find where it says the NHL can mandate the retiring of numbers I'd obviously be wrong. As is, though, I've gone over it in the past and I certainly can't remember anything like that.

 

[PG]

I agree with Nik here. And let's be honest, the Leafs would only have a handful of retired jerseys. They could only dream of having the Habs' and Yankees' "problem" of having too many retired numbers.

I mean, over the last 30 years I would argue only Sundin's is worthy of this honour.

 

[Deebo]

I think its a silly thing to have strong feelings about one way or the other.