Leafs @ Oilers - Mar. 16th, 9:30pm - SNO, Fan 590

[cw]

I don't understand why Kessel's salary has become such a burr for some people. I don't see how any of this would be any more palatable, including his own effort, if he were making less money and MLSE were making more.

In 50 plus years of watching this team, I haven't seen anyone seriously concerned about Leafs owners losing money or making more money.

Horachek reminded last night what these players need to do and how well these players are being paid to play a game when informed of Kessel's "all time low" comments. So he covered how handsomely the players in general are being paid to do this job. The salaries of the Leafs top paid players are going to come up far more frequently - they're like a lightning rod, particularly in a cap system where their salary level affects the club.

MLSE are currently making a boat load of dough no matter what. And individually, so are most of the players.

These players are being paid a lot of money to ... play a game. They have contracts and through those contracts, they gave their word. When they're not making much of an effort to do so, folks are going to be inclined to remind them of their lucrative contract.

For the management at MLSE signing their cheques, I have a feeling, like the fans, they're not thinking too fondly of these guys lately or the guy who signed them because they're an embarrassment to the organization this management is trying to run. Again, it's got little to do with the immediate bottom line. Part of their concern is probably with the longer term damage associated with how many of their customers turned off the TV or walked out of the ACC seriously pissed off - some swearing never to return. Longer term, uncorrected, that will affect their bottom line. To some extent, the last 10 years probably already has done some damage.

The management are also under an employment contract with MLSE that says it's their duty to care about stuff like that and make an effort to do something about it. Unlike their players, I think the management is going to make an effort to respond.

The only folks worried about how much money MLSE is making are the folks who own them and the folks who are paid to worry about that. I don't agree with trying to lay that on the fans.

 

[Chris]

Reading that as "It's OK because MLSE is a big corporation" is pretty ridiculous. The same would be true if MLSE were owned by an individual. I want everyone on the Leafs to play their best, regardless of salary.

In light of your above comments, it doesn't seem any more ridiculous than bringing MLSE into it in the first place.

 

[Kin]

In light of your above comments, it doesn't seem any more ridiculous than bringing MLSE into it in the first place.

MLSE is who owns the team, I didn't decide that.

 

[Kin]

Horachek reminded last night what these players need to do and how well these players are being paid to play a game...

And that's where I tune out. That's when it just sounds like rank bitterness and jealousy. Professional athletes are paid to "play a game" the same way that artists are paid to doodle and writers are paid to play make-believe.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Horachek is a cancer survivor.  He's had to overcome the toughest battle of all -- a disease.

The players he was referring to, his players, may have it tough to  be plowing through what has essentially become a meaningless season standings-wise, yet there is no excuse for these supposedly fit, well-paid athletes to not be 'up for a game' they play.

People will always reference money (one's salary) towards those who make plenty such as celebrities & sports stars, and the like.
It's human nature and that's the way it's going to be, whether anybody likes it or not.

 

[Chris]

Horachek reminded last night what these players need to do and how well these players are being paid to play a game...

And that's where I tune out. That's when it just sounds like rank bitterness and jealousy. Professional athletes are paid to "play a game" the same way that artists are paid to doodle and writers are paid to play make-believe.

And where does MLSE get their income? How much do seats cost these days for Maple Leaf home games? Hockey News listed Toronto as the highest average ticket price in October, $373. People paying a couple hundred dollars for a game deserve top effort from the entire team, especially those earning $10 million per season.

 

[Kin]

Horachek is a cancer survivor.  He's had to overcome the toughest battle of all -- a disease.

So's Phil Kessel you chowderhead.

 

[Kin]

People paying a couple hundred dollars for a game deserve top effort from the entire team...

Exactly. Full stop. Nobody would be cutting Phil Kessel any slack if they thought he was dogging it at only 5 million a year and it wouldn't be acceptable.

I don't know about where you work but at most of the places I've worked there was no threshold of income or position where all of a sudden hard work was expected of you.

 

[Chris]

People paying a couple hundred dollars for a game deserve top effort from the entire team...

Exactly. Full stop. Nobody would be cutting Phil Kessel any slack if they thought he was dogging it at only 5 million a year and it wouldn't be acceptable.

I don't know about where you work but at most of the places I've worked there was no threshold of income or position where all of a sudden hard work was expected of you.

All I can say is, the places I've worked, a higher salary generally means higher expectations.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Horachek is a cancer survivor.  He's had to overcome the toughest battle of all -- a disease.

So's Phil Kessel you chowderhead.

I wasn't certain about Kessel's, you windbag.

 

[Kin]

All I can say is, the places I've worked, a higher salary generally means higher expectations.

And Kessel is still leading the team in scoring. He's still been their best player this year. That's what his salary reflects. You don't pay a player 8 million a year because he works the hardest.

 

[Chris]

All I can say is, the places I've worked, a higher salary generally means higher expectations.

And Kessel is still leading the team in scoring. He's still been their best player this year. That's what his salary reflects. You don't pay a player 8 million a year because he works the hardest.

He may have been their best player before Jan 1. He hasn't been their best player in 2015. 6 goals in 33 games.

Panik has 5 goals and 5 assists in 31 games since Jan 1, Kessel has 6 goals and 7 assists in 33 games.

$10 mil versus $700K.

Guess that's acceptable in your world? OK, tough to really argue with that so I'll stop. Everything is fine in Leaf land. All is as it should be.

 

[Kin]

$10 mil versus $700K.

See, this is what's so comically insane about what you're saying. What difference does it make that Kessel's contract is structured that he gets 10 million this year? Does that obligate him to work harder than if they'd just structured his contract at his cap hit every year? In your world does that mean that when his contract dips to 6 million he could get away with working less hard? Or should hockey players work their hardest regardless of how much they're making?

Despite your transparent attempts to construct strawmen I've never said "everything is ok"  and it's fundamentally disingenuous for you to say I have. I've said that my desire for players on the team to work hard has no connnection to their respective salaries.

I'm sorry if that's too complicated a concept for you to work with.

 

[TML fan]

All I can say is, the places I've worked, a higher salary generally means higher expectations.

And Kessel is still leading the team in scoring. He's still been their best player this year. That's what his salary reflects. You don't pay a player 8 million a year because he works the hardest.

He may have been their best player before Jan 1. He hasn't been their best player in 2015. 6 goals in 33 games.

Panik has 5 goals and 5 assists in 31 games since Jan 1, Kessel has 6 goals and 7 assists in 33 games.

$10 mil versus $700K.

Guess that's acceptable in your world? OK, tough to really argue with that so I'll stop. Everything is fine in Leaf land. All is as it should be.

Sooooo......the Leafs should pay Richard Panik $10 mil?

 

[Chris]

$10 mil versus $700K.

See, this is what's so comically insane about what you're saying. What difference does it make that Kessel's contract is structured that he gets 10 million this year? Does that obligate him to work harder than if they'd just structured his contract at his cap hit every year? In your world does that mean that when his contract dips to 6 million he could get away with working less hard? Or should hockey players work their hardest regardless of how much they're making?

It's really pretty simple. He should be working harder. He's being paid to be the best player on the team. I won't argue with the idea that he is the most skilled/talented (he is), but his play over the past 30-40 games has resulted in his production being the same (essentially) as a much less skilled/talented player (Panik).

Does that make sense to you? Or is it too complicated.

I expect everyone to work as hard as they can, those getting paid more and taking up a much bigger chunk of the salary cap in particular. It's not the exact number ($10 mil, $5 mil, whatever), he's being paid to perform at the highest level and is not doing it.

What more can one say.

 

[Kin]

He should be working harder.

Maybe. The truth of the matter is that even when Kessel is at his best people, myself included, have made similar points about his effort on defense and to play a physical game. I think the entire team looks deflated at this point and that includes Kessel but I don't think his lack of production is specifically tied to a lack of individual effort.

He's being paid to be the best player on the team.

Which he is.

I won't argue with the idea that he is the most skilled/talented (he is), but his play over the past 30-40 games has resulted in his production being the same (essentially) as a much less skilled/talented player (Panik).

Indeed it has. Production, however, is not necessarily a reflection of effort. As fans we have a certain right to expect a level of effort but even the most cursory knowledge of sports would inform anyone that no level of production is ever guaranteed. When the Leafs signed Kessel, they knew what sort of player he was and his limitations. They also knew that dips in production happen to very good players.

I expect everyone to work as hard as they can, those getting paid more and taking up a much bigger chunk of the salary cap in particular. It's not the exact number ($10 mil, $5 mil, whatever), he's being paid to perform at the highest level and is not doing it.

For future reference, when you write a paragraph like this where two sentences directly contradict each other one after the other there are some people who will describe it as being "complicated". Me, I'd go with muddled, poorly thought out and not overly rational.

 

[Al14]

All I can say is, the places I've worked, a higher salary generally means higher expectations.

And Kessel is still leading the team in scoring. He's still been their best player this year. That's what his salary reflects. You don't pay a player 8 million a year because he works the hardest.

He may have been their best player before Jan 1. He hasn't been their best player in 2015. 6 goals in 33 games.

Panik has 5 goals and 5 assists in 31 games since Jan 1, Kessel has 6 goals and 7 assists in 33 games.

$10 mil versus $700K.

Guess that's acceptable in your world? OK, tough to really argue with that so I'll stop. Everything is fine in Leaf land. All is as it should be.

Sooooo......the Leafs should pay Richard Panik $10 mil?

No, the point isn't about giving Panik a raise.  It's about how bad Kessel has been since Jan. 1.  Completely unacceptable for a player making $10.0M for the season.  Now, if it's because he has an injury, then maybe he should sit out and properly recover from it.

 

[Chris]

He's being paid to be the best player on the team.

Which he is

No, he's not. He's the most skilled and talented but he hasn't been the best player over the past 40 games. Maybe that's too subtle of a distinction for you?

He could easily be the best player with more effort.

For future reference, when you write a paragraph like this where two sentences directly contradict each other one after the other there are some people who will describe it as being "complicated". Me, I'd go with muddled, poorly thought out and not overly rational.

Thank you professor, but I think the confusion is on your end.

 

[Kin]

No, he's not. He's the most skilled and talented but he hasn't been the best player over the past 40 games. Maybe that's too subtle of a distinction for you?

He could easily be the best player with more effort.

There are two fundamental problems with that. The first is that it assumes that "best player" is transitory from week to week or game to game based entirely on scoring numbers. If Zach Sill scores next game and Kessel doesn't, Kessel is still a better hockey player. A very good player in a slump, even a long one, is still a very good player.

The second is that those first thirty games still happened and they still count. Kessel will still, by a significant margin, have been the Maple Leafs best player this year regardless of what you think of what's happened over the last 40 games.

 

[Deebo]

The second is that those first thirty games still happened and they still count.

The 255 points over the 250 games prior to Jan 1 also happened.