Lou Will Not Return

[Zee]

I didn't see any actually apprenticeshipping happening, at least not overtly. Osmosis, maybe.

The only thing it did was literally keep Dubas in the minors having significant success, much the way Kapanen and Johnsson were, until they couldn't keep them down any longer (which is very much in keeping with how this front office seemed to operate). Dubas built a lot of cachet in these 3 years.

How would any of us know how much "apprenticeshipping" was happening?  Nobody here saw the day to day workings of the Leafs.

 

[Kin]

Obviously Shanny didn't think he was ready when he hired Lou so it's a mute point.

Well, no, because the point was critical of Shanahan's decision. Especially if, as I do, you think it slowed the progress of the team.

Except, I guess, in the way that all points made here on a hockey message board are somewhat moot but that seems unnecessary to point out.

 

[herman]

I didn't see any actually apprenticeshipping happening, at least not overtly. Osmosis, maybe.

How would any of us know how much "apprenticeshipping" was happening?  Nobody here saw the day to day workings of the Leafs.

That's why I literally said I didn't see any.

 

[Kin]

Maybe, but if you need your snowmobile rewired, you don't call a furnace guy.

Before you, I'd like to go into analogies and try to play them out.

Now I just whack on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and say "no".

 

[Zee]

I think that's a grade A strawman. There's a world of difference between not thinking this "apprenticeship" was necessary and saying it was a bad thing. Although, for the sake of argument, I suppose that depends on whether or not you think that "experienced GM" is still, you know, good at the job(spoiler alert: I don't think he was).

I don't think it's a strawman at all.  Any new young hire that has to deal with a group largely comprised of "old boys club" types will probably benefit from staying back and learning from another of those old boys.  Love him or hate him, Lamoriello was known by all other execs, was respected throughout the league, and had a wealth of experience in actually managing an NHL team.  His player decisions may not have been as progressive as we'd like, but his know how of dealing with all the teams scouts, player agents and other GMs around the league was probably invaluable for a guy like Dubas to see how he handled it.  Sure Dubas was an OHL GM, but I'm sure there's still a large learning curve going from managing a junior team to an NHL team.  Even if Dubas disagreed with 80% of what Lou did, he now has a framework in place to do it his own way, while still knowing how the old school type thinks.  It may come in handy when Dubas has to deal with another GM that thinks like Lou does, and Dubas will know exactly where the other GM is coming from, and hopefully that sort of knowledge benefits the Leafs.

 

[Kin]

I don't think it's a strawman at all.

Well, it is because I didn't say I thought it was necessarily bad or wrong or that I didn't value experience. I said that I didn't get it in this particular case.

Then you fill your argument with a lot of conjecture and vague, impossible to substantiate claims. Which, ok, but just like Herman doesn't know what level of "apprenticeship" went on you don't know what that learning curve may be or to what extent being around Lamoriello in any way influenced Dubas or what value there was in seeing how Lamoriello operates around the league(it didn't, for instance, turn into much in the way of value for the Maple Leafs). I could just as easily suppose that in a league that often prizes orthodoxy over new and unconventional thinking that's it's just as possible that being around someone as old-school as Lou might be a bad thing for Dubas and the coming revolution.

Also, I think you're being unfair to Jon Chayka whose 2016 draft I'd put against any the Leafs have had under the new regime.

 

[Highlander]

The Apprentice?  Trump for GM?  Seriously Micheal Corleone still had the old man around to go to for advice, he lived in the same house. Lou is still going to be around for Dubas to go to for backup. They have a Yoda pad for Lou in the ceiling of the arena.

 

[lamajama]

Thornton can keep his beard now!

Shanny's having a press conference at 1pm today. More details might come then regarding Lou's future involvement and the next GM. I can't imagine it'll be anyone other than Dubas or Hunter, and I can't imagine Shanny is just now starting to consider which one of the two to promote. So we won't be GM-less for long I think.

Agree. I think it's Dubas because the Leafs def don't want to lose Hunter as a scout. I think Hunter is going to be the highest paid scout, if he isn't already.

I have a lot of faith in Hunter too but as a scout. If he becomes a GM he couldn't scout - so I agree. If needed Dubas is GM and Hunter paid 7 figures to be Head Scout (fancy up the title all you want).

 

[herman]

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/mckenzie-shanahan-thinks-very-highly-of-kyle-dubas-1.1072283

The Bobfather spoke to Leafs Lunch prior to the conference call with Shanahan today. His guess as to how the call would go was prescient.

 

[Average Joes]

I always creep on this forum but I found the argument here somewhat odd. I have a hard time thinking of a professional job where an individual would not benefit from a lessor but similar position before jumping into a position of high authority. Is that not how almost all corporate structures are set up? You want people to gain experience and learn from others before their decisions make a huge impact on your company. Why would a position of GM be any different? 

 

[Kin]

I always creep on this forum but I found the argument here somewhat odd. I have a hard time thinking of a professional job where an individual would not benefit from a lessor but similar position before jumping into a position of high authority.

A lesser yet similar position like being the GM of a OHL team or being the team's AGM?

It wasn't Dubas' first job after college.

 

[Frank E]

I always creep on this forum but I found the argument here somewhat odd. I have a hard time thinking of a professional job where an individual would not benefit from a lessor but similar position before jumping into a position of high authority. Is that not how almost all corporate structures are set up? You want people to gain experience and learn from others before their decisions make a huge impact on your company. Why would a position of GM be any different?

Because this is a forum that is dominated by younger people who often think that experience brings more negatives than positives.

Once we get older, we start to understand why multi-million dollar businesses put more seasoned people in charge of their enterprises. 

We're fans, not stakeholders...and I'm old now, but was around here was I was much younger, so I can say that with some perspective...some....

 

[Kin]

I mean, not to put too fine a point on it but we are talking about whether or not Dubas needed a lengthy apprenticeship before he could be hired to run a NHL team by...Brendan Shanahan.

 

[Kin]

Once we get older, we start to understand why multi-million dollar businesses put more seasoned people in charge of their enterprises

He wrote on his IPad.

 

[Average Joes]

A lesser yet similar position like being the GM of a OHL team or being the team's AGM?

It wasn't Dubas' first job after college.
[/quote]

I never said he was fresh from College. Dubas was inexperienced. It usually takes many years in most professional positions to really know what you are doing. You have to live the scenarios, the negotiations, etc. again and again to get really good at it.  Dubas had what 4 years experience when Lou was hired?  Three of those years were with a junior team. He still had a lot to learn.  I think it will be better for his development in the long run that he was not hired as GM three years ago.

 

[bustaheims]

The irony here is that the man Dubas is rumoured to be replacing had zero NHL front office experience when he took over the Devils. He'd worked exclusively in the NCAA prior to being named President and naming himself GM.

 

[Kin]

I never said he was fresh from College. Dubas was inexperienced. It usually takes many years in most professional positions to really know what you are doing. You have to live the scenarios, the negotiations, etc. again and again to get really good at it.  Dubas had what 4 years experience when Lou was hired?  Three of those years were with a junior team. He still had a lot to learn.  I think it will be better for his development in the long run that he was not hired as GM three years ago.

But that difference is what takes you from simple and true statements like "some experience is necessary and good" to much less easy to nail down specifics like how much experience and what kind is needed before someone is ready for a job. The three guys making calls for the Leafs pre-Dubas had, collectively, around a billion years of experience between them. Did that lead to uniformly good decisions?

Conversely, around the pro sports landscape, some of the most successful executives have been some of the youngest/least conventional.

I don't think there is a definitive answer to the question of what experience is needed to successfully run a NHL team and I didn't say otherwise. I didn't say the last three years were bad for Dubas, just that based on what he was doing pre-Lou that I don't think they were necessary.

 

[Frank E]

I mean, not to put too fine a point on it but we are talking about whether or not Dubas needed a lengthy apprenticeship before he could be hired to run a NHL team by...Brendan Shanahan.

You think Shanahan is in control of a billion dollar company?  Come on, Nik.

 

[Average Joes]

I always creep on this forum but I found the argument here somewhat odd. I have a hard time thinking of a professional job where an individual would not benefit from a lessor but similar position before jumping into a position of high authority. Is that not how almost all corporate structures are set up? You want people to gain experience and learn from others before their decisions make a huge impact on your company. Why would a position of GM be any different?

Because this is a forum that is dominated by younger people who often think that experience brings more negatives than positives.

Once we get older, we start to understand why multi-million dollar businesses put more seasoned people in charge of their enterprises. 

We're fans, not stakeholders...and I'm old now, but was around here was I was much younger, so I can say that with some perspective...some....

That makes sense. I?m 40ish . When I was first starting out it seemed easy to see that the guys with 20+ years were much more competent than the young bucks.

 

[Kin]

I mean, not to put too fine a point on it but we are talking about whether or not Dubas needed a lengthy apprenticeship before he could be hired to run a NHL team by...Brendan Shanahan.

You think Shanahan is in control of a billion dollar company?  Come on, Nik.

...No? I think it's his first job in the front office of a NHL team though. And that he only had a few years of experience in a tangentially related job prior to running the Leafs.

Of course I am arguing that Shanahan goofed by not hiring Dubas as GM so maybe he did need a few more years experience before he was hired.