Maple Leafs Training Camp 2024-25 Thread

[cw]

I posted that I thought he played well when Rielly was suspended too.
I don't mind him. I have mixed feelings about them dumping him - worrying that they're giving up too soon.
But the shift seems to be on to put more meat into the lineup to help them physically in the playoffs.

Timothy's weight changed from 190 lbs to 201 lbs from last year to this season. I hope it's a healthy weight gain. There was some dialogue that his weight change was a good thing. Anyway, I am optimistic that he will earn and keep a spot on this roster.

He improved his fitness too trying to reduce mental errors when he started to run out of gas.
So that was a healthy weight gain that a lot of the team seemed to try to do for this coach.
But he didn't seem to get much of a chance - like their minds were made up before he arrived for camp (or when they did his big signing bonus).
I'm positive he can play in this league. I suspect he can still potentially be a top 4.
But it doesn't appear likely to be with this team.

I'll eat my hat if he's considered a top 4 for any other reason other than the fact that he's a right handed shot. I really don't know how much better he is than Justin Holl in all honesty.

Is Ekman-Larsson really that far out of reach? He was on the bottom pairing in FLD last season. I still like Timothy's potential.

He's only 25 years old. This is kind of his coming out season roughly. Or maybe being behind a playoff D, he's a little behind in his development due to less ice time.

Among 249 NHL dmen playing 100 or more games (since Liljegren entered the league in 2019-20)
He's 91st in ppg .33
He's 55th in +/- +38
He's in the upper part of the group inside top 3 for those stats (but playing on a good team which helps those stats)

Last season he was 100th out of 269 in TOI/GP right behind Tanev (10 or more games played)
which is roughly a top 3 result while playing on a playoff bound team (good result for him)

Holl and Liljegren are very different dmen

Unlike Holl who is/was a decent PKer, part of Liljegren's appeal is on the PP where he was underutilized on the Leafs. He shone there when Rielly was suspended. His numbers are inflated some with the good talent he played with. But he could help a team's PP and log some decent ES minutes.

His $3 mil cap hit, arrived at by his contract scrutinizing where his talent fits, is about average among dmen who played 20 games or more last year. So that's roughly top 4 pay.

Fresh start, decent ice time and PP time, there is a fair shot at age 25 that he grows into a top 4 role. I think he has more skill and value than Holl. But under the circumstances, the return won't blow anyone away.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I understand that they are likely going to trade him and why, but I am certain they will regret it.

He will shine with more opportunity.

 

[bustaheims]

I understand that they are likely going to trade him and why, but I am certain they will regret it.

He will shine with more opportunity.

That will ultimately depend on the return. I like Liljegren, but, ultimately, he tops out as a good but not great 2nd pairing RHD. That?s not something you just give away, but if the return is a similarly valuable long term piece, I?m not sure you regret that, either.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I understand that they are likely going to trade him and why, but I am certain they will regret it.

He will shine with more opportunity.

That will ultimately depend on the return. I like Liljegren, but, ultimately, he tops out as a good but not great 2nd pairing RHD. That?s not something you just give away, but if the return is a similarly valuable long term piece, I?m not sure you regret that, either.

Yeah, you're right. I'm just not sure what the market will be for him given how he is viewed league wide due to deployment here.

As other have pointed out, hopefully the fact that he's available for 600k in actual cash might boost his value.

If they can parlay him and potentially another asset into a significant 3rd line center option, I'd be delighted.

 

[ZBBM]

I understand that they are likely going to trade him and why, but I am certain they will regret it.

He will shine with more opportunity.

That will ultimately depend on the return. I like Liljegren, but, ultimately, he tops out as a good but not great 2nd pairing RHD. That?s not something you just give away, but if the return is a similarly valuable long term piece, I?m not sure you regret that, either.

I always return to the example of Anton Stralman.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I think the most concerning thing for Liljegren has not been the skills he has shown on the ice. It has been his decision making. He far too often, makes sloppy, brain-fart decisions with the puck and that eats at a coach. It's hard to put out a player of Liljegren's skillset(middle pair at best) when you're not sure what he's going to give you. If he was a consistent middle pairing guy, or even a consistent bottom pair guy, you'd have him in the line up.

 

[bustaheims]

I understand that they are likely going to trade him and why, but I am certain they will regret it.

He will shine with more opportunity.

That will ultimately depend on the return. I like Liljegren, but, ultimately, he tops out as a good but not great 2nd pairing RHD. That?s not something you just give away, but if the return is a similarly valuable long term piece, I?m not sure you regret that, either.

I always return to the example of Anton Stralman.

Stralman got a lot less time and was thrown into a deal.

 

[cw]

I think the most concerning thing for Liljegren has not been the skills he has shown on the ice. It has been his decision making. He far too often, makes sloppy, brain-fart decisions with the puck and that eats at a coach. It's hard to put out a player of Liljegren's skillset(middle pair at best) when you're not sure what he's going to give you. If he was a consistent middle pairing guy, or even a consistent bottom pair guy, you'd have him in the line up.

Even Liljegren agreed with that to some extent. He felt that he was prone to making bad decisions when he was running out of gas. So a focus this summer was to improve his endurance to help address that. Playing experience will help with that too - players learn from their mistakes.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Stralman got a lot less time and was thrown into a deal.

The Leafs moved on from Stralman days before he turned 23 years old and had just 88 games of NHL experience over 2 seasons where the Leafs roster was pretty bad. Liljegren's 25, has 196 NHL games under his belt, and has spent his entire career primarily playing on a top team behind Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Tavares in the cushiest of deployment you can get for a NHL defender.

That's not to say that Liljegren can't all of a sudden turn things around because anything is possible, but this wouldn't be the Leafs pulling a Stralman 2.0.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

All players/people are prone to making mistakes when they're tired. So he beefed up and got in better shape, but now what's his limit? He was prone to mistakes at 15 minutes a night. Then again prone to mistakes at 17 minutes a night. Last year he was just under 20 minutes and it was the same mistakes.

My heart is hoping he's less prone to the mistakes.
My gut tells me that he is simply a player that does not process the NHL game fast enough to be consistent.

 

[cw]

All players/people are prone to making mistakes when they're tired. So he beefed up and got in better shape, but now what's his limit? He was prone to mistakes at 15 minutes a night. Then again prone to mistakes at 17 minutes a night. Last year he was just under 20 minutes and it was the same mistakes.

My heart is hoping he's less prone to the mistakes.
My gut tells me that he is simply a player that does not process the NHL game fast enough to be consistent.

Benoit is 26 - he came into his own last year - not really a top 4 though he got some minutes like that last yr
Myers is 27 - he might stick ... not top 4
Rifai is 26 - on the fringe
Giordano was 26 when he cracked Calgary's top 4
Edmundson was 25 when he cracked the Blues top 4
Tanev was 25 when he cracked the Canucks top 4
Hakanpaa was 30 when he cracked Dallas' top 4

The things you are bringing up with Liljegren happened when he was 24 or younger.

I don't care where they're drafted. Many dmen are kind of like fine wine - they can take time to distill and often do.

His size is ok at 6'1", 211. He's got a slightly above average shot speed. He's got above average skating speed. He has the physical tools. He's decent offensively.

As I recall (vaguely - might be wrong), his advanced stats didn't look that bad to me relative to other Leafs dmen during the regular season. They dipped in the 2024 playoffs. His +/- has been decent relative to his team so he isn't a horror with errors - better than a number of dmen in the playoffs.

He's also forthright recognizing his errors after a game - it's a much bigger problem when the dman is oblivious or won't acknowledge them. And he's working on addressing them - so I have more time for a player like that.

Leafs want more meat on the backend to help correct playoff losses.

Relative to his age, it's a little early to close the book on him in my opinion.
He might but he might not graduate to the top 4 on a NHL team. For me, the jury is out.
If I had to bet on it, with his attitude and effort, I think he'll get there.

 

[Bender]

All players/people are prone to making mistakes when they're tired. So he beefed up and got in better shape, but now what's his limit? He was prone to mistakes at 15 minutes a night. Then again prone to mistakes at 17 minutes a night. Last year he was just under 20 minutes and it was the same mistakes.

My heart is hoping he's less prone to the mistakes.
My gut tells me that he is simply a player that does not process the NHL game fast enough to be consistent.

Benoit is 26 - he came into his own last year - not really a top 4 though he got some minutes like that last yr
Myers is 27 - he might stick ... not top 4
Rifai is 26 - on the fringe
Giordano was 26 when he cracked Calgary's top 4
Edmundson was 25 when he cracked the Blues top 4
Tanev was 25 when he cracked the Canucks top 4
Hakanpaa was 30 when he cracked Dallas' top 4

The things you are bringing up with Liljegren happened when he was 24 or younger.

I don't care where they're drafted. Many dmen are kind of like fine wine - they can take time to distill and often do.

His size is ok at 6'1", 211. He's got a slightly above average shot speed. He's got above average skating speed. He has the physical tools. He's decent offensively.

As I recall (vaguely - might be wrong), his advanced stats didn't look that bad to me relative to other Leafs dmen during the regular season. They dipped in the 2024 playoffs. His +/- has been decent relative to his team so he isn't a horror with errors - better than a number of dmen in the playoffs.

He's also forthright recognizing his errors after a game - it's a much bigger problem when the dman is oblivious or won't acknowledge them. And he's working on addressing them - so I have more time for a player like that.

Leafs want more meat on the backend to help correct playoff losses.

Relative to his age, it's a little early to close the book on him in my opinion.
He might but he might not graduate to the top 4 on a NHL team. For me, the jury is out.
If I had to bet on it, with his attitude and effort, I think he'll get there.

Attitude and effort do not overcome poor decision making/lower than hoped for hockey IQ.

I'm not necessarily saying give up on him, but the fact is he has to show more for his cap hit, full stop, that's reality. I don't think Liljegren is providing $3m of value and I'm not sure he ever will, and I'd bet closer to he won't than he will.

I think nobody is talking about the fact that unproven d-men do not get paid in the way Liljegren is getting paid. Benoit, Myers, Rifai - these are guys not making even half of what Liljegren is making and don't seem that much different in what is being provided here and now. The others simply are better value for their spend.

And I get that being on the pressure cooker might be bad for his self confidence, but it is what it is in pro sports. Earn the spot or sit, and he simply hasn't earned it.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

And CW nails it. At $3million/yr, we shouldn't even be having this conversation. He should be on the opening night roster.

If you can get anything of substance for a $3million a year defense that spends 1/3 of the season in the pressbox as a healthy scratch, you do it. Especially when you are as cap strapped as the Leafs are.

 

[Bender]

And CW nails it. At $3million/yr, we shouldn't even be having this conversation. He should be on the opening night roster.

If you can get anything of substance for a $3million a year defense that spends 1/3 of the season in the pressbox as a healthy scratch, you do it. Especially when you are as cap strapped as the Leafs are.

At some point you cut bait so why are we obligated to keep holding onto a d-man that has struggled to put it together and was outworked by other players in camp for lower dollars? If we're so worried about cutting on defense early why aren't we talking about Timmins in the same way given he's only half a year older than Liljegren?

 

[dappleganger]

Is there a team in the NHL with a higher-priced player ($3m) as a healthy scratch to open the season than the Leafs?

 

[ZBBM]

Stralman got a lot less time and was thrown into a deal.

The Leafs moved on from Stralman days before he turned 23 years old and had just 88 games of NHL experience over 2 seasons where the Leafs roster was pretty bad. Liljegren's 25, has 196 NHL games under his belt, and has spent his entire career primarily playing on a top team behind Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Tavares in the cushiest of deployment you can get for a NHL defender.

That's not to say that Liljegren can't all of a sudden turn things around because anything is possible, but this wouldn't be the Leafs pulling a Stralman 2.0.

It is if they move on from a relatively hard to get RHD who becomes a serviceable regular.

 

[bustaheims]

Stralman got a lot less time and was thrown into a deal.

The Leafs moved on from Stralman days before he turned 23 years old and had just 88 games of NHL experience over 2 seasons where the Leafs roster was pretty bad. Liljegren's 25, has 196 NHL games under his belt, and has spent his entire career primarily playing on a top team behind Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Tavares in the cushiest of deployment you can get for a NHL defender.

That's not to say that Liljegren can't all of a sudden turn things around because anything is possible, but this wouldn't be the Leafs pulling a Stralman 2.0.

It is if they move on from a relatively hard to get RHD who becomes a serviceable regular.

That?s a pretty superficial similarity, though.

 

[IJustLurkHere]

Liljegren, like all the Leafs, is learning a new system. So far he's been slower than others to figure out how to apply his skills in that system. I'm of the opinion that his skills are greater than some of those who have figured it out faster, and given time, those skills will show up.

It's game 1.

Go Leafs.