Mark Fraser

[bustaheims]

I liked Todd Gill as a D-man for the Leafs I don't see very much Todd Gill in Franson maybe you do for some reason.

Offensive defenceman with a great shot, but questionable defensive play and skating. Frason has a larger frame, but, Gill was also a pretty feisty, physical guy. There are a lot more similarities between Franson and Todd than there are between Franson and Hal.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

But it's not a matter of how you look at it, really.  You said that you think trading Franson means they take a step back from last year when what I'm saying is that Gardiner's increased presence already makes that not true regardless of whatever they might get from Rielly.

Sure, if the Leafs think that Rielly can step right in and look like a veteran, so be it, but I don't think he will. I'm not at all trying to slight Rielly either, as I have high hopes for him, probably more than Gardiner, but like Gardiner, I think Rielly will still have to learn a year in pro to get to where we don't see any drop off overall.

But that's what I'm saying. The idea that there's such a steep learning curve that a guy with Rielly's talent can't come in and immediately contribute valuable minutes in the NHL isn't a guarantee but it's certainly not an impossibility.

I wasn't trying to imply that it's impossible, that's silly, but I think the curve will be enough for him that we'll notice the difference. If that's the route the Leafs take, I certainly hope I'm wrong about that.

 

[Joe S.]

I think Franson is Hal Gill 2.0.

Stanley cup champion Hal Gill?

 

[Kin]

Sure, if the Leafs think that Rielly can step right in and look like a veteran, so be it, but I don't think he will. I'm not at all trying to slight Rielly either, as I have high hopes for him, probably more than Gardiner, but like Gardiner, I think Rielly will still have to learn a year in pro to get to where we don't see any drop off overall.

But drop off from what? Like I said, Gardiner will take Franson's spot if that's the case. Rielly will be taking Kostka's spot in a trade Franson/keep Liles scenario and I don't think being as good as Mike Kostka is any kind of tall order.

 

[Palmateer29]

I liked Todd Gill as a D-man for the Leafs I don't see very much Todd Gill in Franson maybe you do for some reason.

Offensive defenceman with a great shot, but questionable defensive play and skating. Frason has a larger frame, but, Gill was also a pretty feisty, physical guy. There are a lot more similarities between Franson and Todd than there are between Franson and Hal.

I guess I just don't consider Franson feisty or physical. I always see it as someone of that size should use his strength, size and body more. Franson's contact to me seems to be more coincidental than premeditated. Gill on the other hand could fight...I always loved the surprise fight when someone (can't remember who) found out Todd was a lefty LOL

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Sure, if the Leafs think that Rielly can step right in and look like a veteran, so be it, but I don't think he will. I'm not at all trying to slight Rielly either, as I have high hopes for him, probably more than Gardiner, but like Gardiner, I think Rielly will still have to learn a year in pro to get to where we don't see any drop off overall.

But drop off from what? Like I said, Gardiner will take Franson's spot if that's the case. Rielly will be taking Kostka's spot in a trade Franson/keep Liles scenario and I don't think being as good as Mike Kostka is any kind of tall order.

I know a lot of people here think that which side a player plays seems unimportant, but I think it has to play in there somewhere. As far as Gardiner taking Franson's spot? Maybe, but I still don't think that Rielly is ready to play top 4 in the NHL, regardless of who he's replacing, Kostka never entered my mind, as I don't see him as top 4. He played there, but you know better.

There is still my point about this also being about Phaneuf. If you go out and trade Franson, because you think Rielly is ready, then find that Phaneuf is leaving, for whatever reason, I won't feel to comfortable about our defensive competitiveness for a couple of years, the experience just won't be there.

Gunnarsson/ Gardiner
Rielly/ Liles?
Fraser/ Holzer/ Ranger?

I don't even care who is excelling in the system at that point, we'd be back to trying to find a veteran defenseman again if we weren't able to replace Phaneuf in a trade or whatever.

Anyway, if Phaneuf is staying, sure, move Franson, but I think one of those two needs to be a part of the Leafs blueline for more than a year.

 

[mr grieves]

As far as Gardiner replacing Franson, I want them on the same line together, so I don't look at it from that standpoint. I want:

But it's not a matter of how you look at it, really.  You said that you think trading Franson means they take a step back from last year when what I'm saying is that Gardiner's increased presence already makes that not true regardless of whatever they might get from Rielly.

Would it be more accurate to say "a step back from what we saw in the playoffs"? I think when folks are saying this year's defense will be improved over last season, they have the Franson-Gardiner penciled in as their second pair.

 

[Kin]

Maybe, but I still don't think that Rielly is ready to play top 4 in the NHL, regardless of who he's replacing, Kostka never entered my mind, as I don't see him as top 4. He played there, but you know better.

Yeah but if we're comparing next's year's prospective defense to last year's we can't just ignore where Kostka played either. And the thing is you don't even really need Rielly to step into a top 4 role right away in order to have him be valuable. Your top 4 can be Phaneuf, Gunnar, Gardiner, Liles with Rielly as the #5 getting sheltered a bit/getting PP minutes and gradually work him into the top 4 over the course of a season.

 

[Kin]

Would it be more accurate to say "a step back from what we saw in the playoffs"? I think when folks are saying this year's defense will be improved over last season, they have the Franson-Gardiner penciled in as their second pair.

Well, different from what we saw in the playoffs certainly. That said as someone who watched game 7, I think the Leafs could use a little different.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Maybe, but I still don't think that Rielly is ready to play top 4 in the NHL, regardless of who he's replacing, Kostka never entered my mind, as I don't see him as top 4. He played there, but you know better.

Yeah but if we're comparing next's year's prospective defense to last year's we can't just ignore where Kostka played either. And the thing is you don't even really need Rielly to step into a top 4 role right away in order to have him be valuable. Your top 4 can be Phaneuf, Gunnar, Gardiner, Liles with Rielly as the #5 getting sheltered a bit/getting PP minutes and gradually work him into the top 4 over the course of a season.

Agreed on the Rielly point, that is what I'd prefer in any scenario.

Did Kostka even play the whole year in the top 4? In a shortened season at that, he played there until everybody realized that he isn't an NHL defenseman. At that point, it was Franson and Fraser/ Gardiner that took over.

I'm just not thrilled with Leafs fans wanting to trade both our top scoring defensemen out of town, because they make a bit more money than they should and Franson isn't even signed yet. And for the record, I'm not saying you're in that group, just an overall feeling reading the comments of Leaf Nation lately.

I'm not even that convinced that Liles can even bring what he did pre-concussion, so he's not even in my line-up for that reason.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I guess I just don't consider Franson feisty or physical. I always see it as someone of that size should use his strength, size and body more.

Franson totally answered the bell in that regard last season IMO, Carlyle asked that of him and I thought he did that and then some. He was far more aggressive than the year previous.

 

[Kin]

Agreed on the Rielly point, that is what I'd prefer in any scenario.

Did Kostka even play the whole year in the top 4? In a shortened season at that, he played there until everybody realized that he isn't an NHL defenseman. At that point, it was Franson and Fraser/ Gardiner that took over.

Kostka played 35 games and averaged a little over 22 minutes a game. It's not the whole year but it's a very significant role.

I'm just not thrilled with Leafs fans wanting to trade both our top scoring defensemen out of town, because they make a bit more money than they should and Franson isn't even signed yet. And for the record, I'm not saying you're in that group, just an overall feeling reading the comments of Leaf Nation lately.

For what it's worth I haven't seen much in the way of people advocating trading Phaneuf and with regard to Franson I think a lot of the chatter regarding him is based less on his salary/prospective salary than it is that the very real possibility exists to not just trade him and not lose a ton over last year's defense but to trade him and get valuable assets back.

 

[mr grieves]

Would it be more accurate to say "a step back from what we saw in the playoffs"? I think when folks are saying this year's defense will be improved over last season, they have the Franson-Gardiner penciled in as their second pair.

Well, different from what we saw in the playoffs certainly. That said as someone who watched game 7, I think the Leafs could use a little different.

Me too. Which is why, I guess, so many had Scuderi or Ference or some other veteran defensive presence that can make a pass (Hainsey?) penciled in as an off-season priority.

And I don't think "Liles - Gardiner" or "Fraser - Gardiner" or "Ranger - Gardiner" or whichever combination shakes out of trading Franson for prospects and picks was the "little different" anyone had in mind.

 

[Kin]

Me too. Which is why, I guess, so many had Scuderi or Ference or some other veteran defensive presence that can make a pass (Hainsey?) penciled in as an off-season priority.

No doubt. It certainly explains why Nonis did what he could to sign Scuderi.

And I don't think "Liles - Gardiner" or "Fraser - Gardiner" or "Ranger - Gardiner" or whichever combination shakes out of trading Franson for prospects and picks was the "little different" anyone had in mind.

No. Sadly, actual free agency isn't quite as a la carte as EA Sports has lead us to believe.

 

[mr grieves]

And I don't think "Liles - Gardiner" or "Fraser - Gardiner" or "Ranger - Gardiner" or whichever combination shakes out of trading Franson for prospects and picks was the "little different" anyone had in mind.

No. Sadly, actual free agency isn't quite as a la carte as EA Sports has lead us to believe.

Surely you aren't serious that a lone offer to Rob Scuderi demonstrates any commitment to upgrading the defense. That's a commitment to getting Rob Scuderi. Tom Gilbert and Rob Hainsey remain available -- and I'd wager most would take either over Liles, Ranger, Holzer, or Fraser in the top four. Obviously Nonis wouldn't, made Clarkson the FA priority, and figured he was upgrading the defense by upgrading the goalie tandem. And, on the last, maybe he did. We're told Bernier plays the puck well -- maybe we won't need as many first passes out of the zone. But it's certainly not the defensive upgrade most were anticipating after game 7.

 

[Kin]

Surely you aren't serious that a lone offer to Rob Scuderi demonstrates any commitment to upgrading the defense. That's a commitment to getting Rob Scuderi.

No, I'm saying that making a serious pitch to sign Rob Scuderi shows that Nonis was trying to improve the defense. The Scuderi offer is notable really just because we know about it. For all you or I know Nonis could have made calls to Ference's agent as well as others and the Scuderi offer that we know about makes it reasonable to assume he did. Sadly, as I mentioned, Free Agency isn't a la carte and Dave Nonis' interest can only dictate so much.

Tom Gilbert and Rob Hainsey remain available -- and I'd wager most would take either over Liles, Ranger, Holzer, or Fraser in the top four.

Well, I'm glad you've appointed yourself spokesman for "most" Leafs fans but personally I don't think either guy is good enough to make much of an effort to sign. I'm not the biggest JM Liles fan in the world but at the very least his contract is already on the books. Considering that there's really nothing to suggest that Gilbert's much of an improvement over Liles signing Gilbert to whatever he's looking for, which again is something you don't know even if we assume he's receptive to playing in Toronto, seems like adding salary while running in place.

Obviously Nonis wouldn't, made Clarkson the FA priority, and figured he was upgrading the defense by upgrading the goalie tandem.

Or Dave Nonis tried to upgrade the defense, which we know he did, but ultimately couldn't find the right fit among the available UFA's and decided that it was better to sign no one than it was to sign a deal that didn't make sense among the left-over dregs.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Kostka played 35 games and averaged a little over 22 minutes a game. It's not the whole year but it's a very significant role.

I never looked at the games played, or any of Kostka's stats for that matter, but I'm actually surprised by that number, I would have guessed less. It seemed that he just had a permanent spot in the pressbox after a torrid start (with ice-time rather than norris like play).

At any rate, we know how those numbers should have never been.

For what it's worth I haven't seen much in the way of people advocating trading Phaneuf and with regard to Franson I think a lot of the chatter regarding him is based less on his salary/prospective salary than it is that the very real possibility exists to not just trade him and not lose a ton over last year's defense but to trade him and get valuable assets back.

Well, I'm not sure how much you read comments on other sites, because I wasn't just talking about here, he's been the definition of "polarizing". Of course a lot of it was probably idiots that talk out their rear end, but I saw a high number of comments that implied that he shouldn't be on the team, especially when the rumours came out, for obvious reasons. I just would have thought that people watched his game before trying to push him out of town.

I think the point stands, with neither of Franson or Phaneuf on this team, I don't like our chances in our own end.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I never looked at the games played, or any of Kostka's stats for that matter, but I'm actually surprised by that number, I would have guessed less. It seemed that he just had a permanent spot in the pressbox after a torrid start (with ice-time rather than norris like play).

If you look through his game log you'll find that he only played less than 18 minutes on 3 occasions. Even in the last quarter of the season he was still playing over 20 minutes a night on a regular basis. Carlyle was very odd with how he dealt with scratched defencemen. Kostka, Gardiner, and Liles were either in the press box or playing a top-4 role because the Fraser-Franson pairing was the designated 3rd pairing.

I wasn't Kostka's biggest fan, but that's mostly because of how Carlyle used him. Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

Though Kostka's price tag is more attractive, the two players bring completely different skill sets to the ice.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

Though Kostka's price tag is more attractive, the two players bring completely different skill sets to the ice.

Of course. But I still think it's possible to compare the two individually and decide which defenceman is more effective. And if we do that I think Kostka comes out ahead. He may not have been a great top-4 defenceman, but I think he held his own for the most part. Fraser would have looked much more out of place in my opinion.

Even if we're looking at them in terms of how they'd fit the Leafs defence, Kostka would still fill a valuable role in the sense that he's a right-handed shot and the team has very little of those. Especially if they are forced to trade Franson.