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leafsjunkie
Member
nutman said:
Like you saw the Leafs making the playoffs every year, for the last decade? Just sayin'
louisstamos
Active member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Exactly that. The thing is with advanced stats (in every sport, not necessarily just hockey), you know when it comes to management and behind the scenes - teams keep track of all those things, and keep personnel to monitor those exact things. Thus, fans who like numbers like to look at those things as well, as it gets them closer to the game/behind the scenes aspects of the game. I myself, being a numbers nerd, really started getting into raw stats and stuff by getting into Fantasy Hockey, and started getting into advanced stats after that. Hilariously enough, I really got deeper into advanced stats after the David Clarkson signing backfired, because I thought it was a good signing at the time based on his "intangibles" (grit, leadership, etc), while most of the AS community did not like the signing, and in the end he ended up being awful. At that point, I was like "maybe these guys are really onto something."
But yeah, if you want to watch the game and not think about anything beyond basic numbers (goals & assists), that's fine. If you want to dwelve into the effectiveness of players based on their advanced numbers, that's fine too. There's no need for one to poo-poo the other for any reason. If anything, it makes for more interesting debates (i.e: the eye test vs analytics debate over Jake Gardiner for years)
Zee
Active member
nutman said:
Well to answer your question, yes I can see game by game good things the Leafs are doing both individually and collectively as a team, but I don't watch the other 29 teams in the NHL on a regular basis so the advanced stats can help when comparing the Leafs overall stats to other teams. If I see Leafs and "Team X"* have the same number of points, but the advanced stats tell me the Leafs are actually winning while playing the right way, but "Team X" is sort of flukey and will come back down to earth, then that fills my heart with additional glee.
* - Team X may be one of Montreal, Ottawa or Vancouver for additional joy
nutman said:
Was the dress gold and white or black and blue?
bustaheims
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:
It still blows my mind that, in spite of the optical illusions and deceptive visuals we encounter on a daily basis, people don't understand that cannot simply believe their eyes. Your eyes misinterpret what they see all too frequently.
louisstamos
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:
Close the site down. Carlton wins.
Kin
New member
The problem I have with the "I can see it with my own eyes" crowd was well put by Zee. I watch the Leafs but I don't have time to watch other teams with regularity so putting anything a Leaf does in any sort of context(how is Hyman as a penalty killer vs. other team's penalty killers) relies on numbers.
The people who have a problem with your more advanced numbers don't have a problem with context or trying to rate players across the league, they just want to do so on the basis of numbers that are subject to all manner of biases and outside factors that muddy the issue. They'll rate goalies by SV% and snipers by goals and defensemen by +/- so it's not the concept of numbers they dislike.
All advanced statistics are trying to do is separate the wheat from the chaff in the numbers we use. Is every attempt to quantify the sport going to work? No. But it's a worthwhile process to get at some important truths of the game that just can't be picked up on by only watching one team.
Extricating yourself from that pursuit is fine if you want to be a fan of a team but it is going to limit you when it comes to discussing the sport, especially now that some of these more complicated numbers have taken hold in NHL front offices.
The people who have a problem with your more advanced numbers don't have a problem with context or trying to rate players across the league, they just want to do so on the basis of numbers that are subject to all manner of biases and outside factors that muddy the issue. They'll rate goalies by SV% and snipers by goals and defensemen by +/- so it's not the concept of numbers they dislike.
All advanced statistics are trying to do is separate the wheat from the chaff in the numbers we use. Is every attempt to quantify the sport going to work? No. But it's a worthwhile process to get at some important truths of the game that just can't be picked up on by only watching one team.
Extricating yourself from that pursuit is fine if you want to be a fan of a team but it is going to limit you when it comes to discussing the sport, especially now that some of these more complicated numbers have taken hold in NHL front offices.
Kin
New member
bustaheims said:
Sort of the great contradiction in all of this is that for all the talk about stats heads being know it alls or arrogant it's only someone who rejected trying to put what we're seeing in proper context who would say that they're not subject to the sort of ingrained confirmation biases we all are.
An update on the Athletic:
That's Mike Johnson and Tyler Dellow on the hockey side, and a Blue Jays blogger to add some voices to the baseball side.
I remember Mirtle flat out asked twitter users which former player they'd like to see the Athletic try to scoop up awhile back, and Johnson was the overwhelming favourite. So I'm glad we'll start to hear his voice again. I think he's been doing some work for the NHL Network since Sportsnet dropped him but obviously that doesn't do us Leafs fan much good.
And I've been very curious to see what Dellow's next public move was going to be since being let go by Edmonton. Will be good to have his writing back in the analytics community.
That's Mike Johnson and Tyler Dellow on the hockey side, and a Blue Jays blogger to add some voices to the baseball side.
I remember Mirtle flat out asked twitter users which former player they'd like to see the Athletic try to scoop up awhile back, and Johnson was the overwhelming favourite. So I'm glad we'll start to hear his voice again. I think he's been doing some work for the NHL Network since Sportsnet dropped him but obviously that doesn't do us Leafs fan much good.
And I've been very curious to see what Dellow's next public move was going to be since being let go by Edmonton. Will be good to have his writing back in the analytics community.
Kin
New member
Off topic I guess but I really liked Drunk Jays Fans back in the day so it's good to see Stoeten will still be writing about the team.
That said, I always felt that site and its collapse in the whole The Score explosion was an example of why it's sometimes a mistake to turn amateur bloggers into pros.
That said, I always felt that site and its collapse in the whole The Score explosion was an example of why it's sometimes a mistake to turn amateur bloggers into pros.