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Mitch Marner: what now?

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Nik the Trik said:
Chris said:
True, but ultimately he's worth what someone is willing to pay him.
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The idea that something is worth what someone else is willing to pay is really only true in a free market. If the NHL is engaged in price-fixing when it comes to salaries via compensation and the cap, and they absolutely are, then what someone is willing to pay doesn't necessarily really reflect someone's worth.
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Sure it does. The NHL, warts and all, is Marner's market. Let him go out into the "real" world and see if he can find someone to pay him $11 or $12 million for whatever skill set he might have other than hockey. Or maybe someone in Europe or Russia will pay him more than he can get in the NHL.

If the Leafs are offering him $10.5 mil for 8 years (or whatever their current/best offer is) and no one else is coming forward with a better offer, that's what he is worth.

 
Chris said:
Sure it does. The NHL, warts and all, is Marner's market.
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And the NHL has specifically set up a system that artificially limits compensation. What dictates a player's salary is not what a team would be willing to pay him but how they think he fits into a salary structure wherein compensation dollars are limited from team to team(Edit: And, of course, other teams aren't just offering Marner cash but are forced to offer the Leafs draft picks as well if he signs with them, further depressing his "value").

There's a reason why price fixing monopolies are generally seen to be antithetical to free market capitalism and it's precisely this reason.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Chris said:
Sure it does. The NHL, warts and all, is Marner's market.
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And the NHL has specifically set up a system that artificially limits compensation. What dictates a player's salary is not what a team would be willing to pay him but how they think he fits into a salary structure wherein compensation dollars are limited from team to team(Edit: And, of course, other teams aren't just offering Marner cash but are forced to offer the Leafs draft picks as well if he signs with them, further depressing his "value").

There's a reason why price fixing monopolies are generally seen to be antithetical to free market capitalism and it's precisely this reason.
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Doesn't matter. It is what it is, and in the current system Marner is worth what the Leafs or another team offer.

The current system specifies that if another team signs Marner to an offer sheet, they must provide compensation. That is the system.

You don't like the system, you want to change the system - fine, but that's another discussion. It doesn't matter if Marner would be "worth" $15 million a year (or more) in a system with no salary cap and unrestricted free agency instead of restricted free agency + salary cap.

Either Marner will sign for what the Leafs offer, or they'll up their offer. In any case we will eventually know what he is worth in the marketplace where he resides. No other universe matters.
 
Chris said:
Doesn't matter. It is what it is, and in the current system Marner is worth what the Leafs or another team offer.
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It absolutely matters insofar as it will inform what players think their actual value is and their willingness to accept offers that are far below it. Likewise, it matters in as much as it means that what a player is offered is in no way a legitimate reflection of their actual worth.

And, related to what I was saying a while back to princedpw, this is why the salary structure of the league isn't the be all and end all when it comes to contract negotiations. There are two numbers being grappled with here, a number spat out by a price fixing cabal and a number that reflects a more genuine sense of a player's value. To what extent a player is going to hew more to one or the other is entirely up to that player when seeking his compensation. Trying to get a handle on "the market" without taking that reality into account is almost certainly going to lead to bad attempts at guessing what players sign for.

So by all means say that Marner's compensation is going to be affected by the cap because that's just a fact but to say that what teams are able to offer him under the cap provides a realistic measurement of his worth(and therefore he's "spoiled" if he doesn't accept whatever number the Leafs decide that is) just doesn't add up.
 
Nik the Trik said:
It absolutely matters insofar as it will inform what players think their actual value is and their willingness to accept offers that are far below it. Likewise, it matters in as much as it means that what a player is offered is in no way a legitimate reflection of their actual worth.

And, related to what I was saying a while back to princedpw, this is why the salary structure of the league isn't the be all and end all when it comes to contract negotiations. There are two numbers being grappled with here, a number spat out by a price fixing cabal and a number that reflects a more genuine sense of a player's value. To what extent a player is going to hew more to one or the other is entirely up to that player when seeking his compensation. Trying to get a handle on "the market" without taking that reality into account is almost certainly going to lead to bad attempts at guessing what players sign for.

So by all means say that Marner's compensation is going to be affected by the cap because that's just a fact but to say that what teams are able to offer him under the cap provides a realistic measurement of his worth(and therefore he's "spoiled" if he doesn't accept whatever number the Leafs decide that is) just doesn't add up.
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It adds up unless your only intent is to argue and make things into something they're not.

Marner can think he's worth any amount but unless someone is willing to pay him that amount, he isn't worth it under the current system. It's really quite simple, no matter how you spin it.
 
Chris said:
Marner can think he's worth any amount but unless someone is willing to pay him that amount, he isn't worth it under the current system. It's really quite simple, no matter how you spin it.
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Again, that's just not a concept of "worth" that has any real economic meaning and, as such, is a pretty ridiculous standing on which to call someone "spoiled" for not accepting any particular offer. It's effectively arguing that there is no such thing as economic exploitation so long as it hews to whatever corruption rules the day.

If a system is broken or corrupt, not blindly accepting its determination of worth is just inherently rational.
 
I'll consider judging a player's desire to maximize their earnings as soon as the NHL puts a cap on each team's profitability and makes them donate the overage to charity.
 
Everything that's happening between Marner and the Leafs is a 'part of the current system'. If what Marner is doing means he's spoiled, than what the Leafs are doing is miserly. Neither of course are actually true, they're both negotiating in fair and reasonable ways as in accordance to the confines of the system they are a part of.
 
Bill_Berg said:
Everything that's happening between Marner and the Leafs is a 'part of the current system'. If what Marner is doing means he's spoiled, than what the Leafs are doing is miserly. Neither of course are actually true, they're both negotiating in fair and reasonable ways as in accordance to the confines of the system they are a part of.
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Well, we don't know what the Leafs are offering (nor what Marner is asking). However, the Leafs are constrained by the cap. It sounds like they can probably spend about $10 million or so on Marner as things stand now. Is that a miserly offer if that is what is on the table? I mean, sure they could give him the moon but then they have to start trimming other pieces like Hyman or Johnsson or Kapanen. So Marner gets what he wants but the team is worse. That sounds a bit spoiled to me but what do I know
 
Can someone please explain to me why Marner as an unsigned RFA is any different than the other young talented RFAs that have yet to sign? What am I missing? Why is Marner singled out as the greedy whiny selfish kid here above the others?
 
The general well being of the Maple Leafs isn't Marner's responsibility. If the Leafs don't have internal options to replace players as mediocre as Kapanen, Johnsson and Hyman then it's a failure on the team's part to draft and develop properly. That's not a reason for Marner to be willing to take less money than he thinks he's worth no more than any of us would be receptive to a similar argument.

By signing Kapanen and Johnsson to the deals they did, the Leafs prioritized that money going to those guys instead of Marner. That's a valid choice for them to make if they think it's good for the team but they can't then turn around and cry poverty about how they don't have money to work with.
 
Joe S. said:
Can someone please explain to me why Marner as an unsigned RFA is any different than the other young talented RFAs that have yet to sign? What am I missing? Why is Marner singled out as the greedy whiny selfish kid here above the others?
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He's a Leaf and that's our team?? The media spews non stop dribble about this and truth be told, NO ONE knows what has or hasn't been offered. The only time we can judge, and not like we have a right to do that, is when the details come out later. I personally don't care what he signs for as long as Dubas can keep the team moving forward.
 
No we don't know what was offered but  based on his performance and what we have in cap space it's fair to think it would be around 10 mill a year and it's also fair to think we would want a long term contract around 7/8 years, that's around 70/80 mill! Then add on the millions in endorsements he's going to sign and Marner is going to worth some serious coin, so I'm sorry I could care less about whatever, the kid is a spoiled little brat.
 
I hesitate to keep talking about this because it's so tragically stupid but isn't the idea behind someone being spoiled that they've been given everything without earning it so they don't appreciate things?

If so, what has Marner been given? For three years he's produced like a first liner and been paid like a 4th line scrub because of the league's rookie wage scale. Even if you want to think that Marner not having signed yet reveals something negative about his character, and again that notion is worthy of ridicule, the idea that he's "spoiled" doesn't fit in the least.
 
Nik the Trik said:
I hesitate to keep talking about this because it's so tragically stupid but isn't the idea behind someone being spoiled that they've been given everything without earning it so they don't appreciate things?

If so, what has Marner been given? For three years he's produced like a first liner and been paid like a 4th line scrub because of the league's rookie wage scale. Even if you want to think that Marner not having signed yet reveals something negative about his character, and again that notion is worthy of ridicule, the idea that he's "spoiled" doesn't fit in the least.
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Ok how about selfish little....
 
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