Mitch Marner will likely be a centre

[Kin]

Quite surprised he and Strome were left off the team last time around.

It's pretty rare for 17 year olds to make the team, no matter how good they are.

 

[hobarth]

Mostly I agree with what you're saying but I watch Anaheim and see Getzlaf and Perry kill penalties, Detroit has Datsyuk and Zetterburg kill penalties while also filling their offensive roles so I'm not confining Marner to only a defensive role, where he ends up in the lineup will be dictated by his ability.

Only one of the four players you mentioned played a significant PK role for their team this year. Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Perry combined spent under 50 minutes on the PK.

And Perry's never really been a penalty killer. He's only got two seasons where he averaged more than a minute per night on the PK and both of those years were largely unsuccessful ones for Anaheim and where they had mediocre penalty kills.

I go with what I see, what I've seen except maybe Perry those players have throughout their careers been instrumental in every part of their team's success but you can nik pik or you can open your mind to what can be better for the Leafs, your choice.

To me it's never understandable to have your best player sit most of the night, when your best player is sitting your chances of winning are diminishing whether in a penalty killing situation or a PP situation.

If Perry only spent 1 minute on the PK then he spent 1 minute more than Kessel, why can't Kessel kill penalties, probably because he wasn't properly coached from the git go, let's see to it that Marner's utility is maximized by placing him in an environment where he can't isn't an option, condition him now, prepare him now.

I never said that those players were significant PKers but compared to Kessel they definitely were. I can remember Sundin PKing was he TO's top option, no, but he did.

All those players spent additional time in development leagues following the draft to hone that exact craft. Marner playing in junior doesn't automatically mean he'll only focus on scoring, and it will likely involve them grooming him to become even more of a 200-ft player in all key situations. It will give him a chance to continue developing physically and to leverage those new strengths to see how he can elevate his game. There is no point in bringing him up to a 4th line role for <10 minutes a game to play in his own end.

It'll also allow him the opportunity to likely play a major role on Canada's World Junior team, which I imagine is enough of a motivator for him and could be a very valuable experience in terms of his development.

I'm a Leaf fan, I wish the Cdn Junior team well every year but I'm only truly concerned what he can do for TO, I'm looking for him to be properly groomed to be a Leaf now so if he's one of TO's better players in training camp then I think he should make the team unlike what TO did with Kadri in his first Leaf training camp. Kadri's development stunted or maybe he never had the talent that we all felt he might but here's another player that's never used as a PKer, why? PKing is just a microcosm of what I'd expect him to be properly trained in but it's a part of the 200 foot player I'd prefer TO cultivate.

Bergeron or Thorton who would you rather have?

 

[Kin]

I go with what I see, what I've seen except maybe Perry those players have throughout their careers been instrumental in every part of their team's success but you can nik pik or you can open your mind to what can be better for the Leafs, your choice.

Pointing out that you're getting elementary facts wrong isn't nit picking.

If Perry only spent 1 minute on the PK then he spent 1 minute more than Kessel, why can't Kessel kill penalties, probably because he wasn't properly coached from the git go, let's see to it that Marner's utility is maximized by placing him in an environment where he can't isn't an option, condition him now, prepare him now.

See, nik picking would be if I pointed out that spending a minute on the PK would only mean he'd been on it for 7 seconds more than Kessel.

Kessel, like Thornton, was kept in the NHL as an 18 year old rather than be sent back to Junior to work on areas of his game. Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't in the NHL until they were 22. Perry spent two full years in junior after being drafted. So did Getzlaf.

So it seems to me that the more rounded players didn't immediately make the jump. Which makes sense. Most people don't learn to swim by being thrown into the deep end.

To me it's never understandable to have your best player sit most of the night, when your best player is sitting your chances of winning are diminishing whether in a penalty killing situation or a PP situation.

And yet the team that just won their 3rd cup in 6 years did it with their best offensive forward being someone who never sees the light of day on the PK.

 

[L K]

I'm a Leaf fan, I wish the Cdn Junior team well every year but I'm only truly concerned what he can do for TO, I'm looking for him to be properly groomed to be a Leaf now so if he's one of TO's better players in training camp then I think he should make the team.

The decision for a player to make the team out of the preseason isn't going to be based on their performance in games where most players aren't even trying.  It's going to be a total picture assessment based on offseason workouts and where the team views him in his individual development process. 

We also don't really have a good idea for how Babcock is going to work with players in Toronto at this point.  Oe would assume that his coaching style won't change, but we need to see that to be sure.  He wasn't exactly dealing with rosters of young players in Detroit...and the young players that he was working with had a lot of seasoning in the minors before he got his hands on them on a daily basis.

The NHL isn't a development league.  If the Leafs feel that Marner has a lot of things they want him to work on, struggling with them in a league where size IS going to be an issue isn't the right place to work on those things. 

We also know what calibre of coaching Marner will get if he goes back to Junior hockey, and that's a pretty solid one in London with Dale.  The Knights have a very deep roster this year that could be adding two significant defensemen so they are poised to make a deep playoff run and potentially go for another Memorial Cup.  Going back to London is a good place for Marner to work on his size, faceoffs and advancing his good defensive instincts.  He would also be the de facto leader on the Knights with Dvorak and Domi graduating to the Coyotes/their better AHL team.

 

[Kin]

Bergeron or Thorton who would you rather have?

PK ice time since 2002-2003, when they first started keeping track:

Pavel Datsyuk - 812:10
Joe Thornton - 778: 27

 

[hobarth]

Bergeron or Thorton who would you rather have?

PK ice time since 2002-2003, when they first started keeping track:

Pavel Datsyuk - 812:10
Joe Thornton - 778: 27

I have stated that some star players aren't used on the PK while others are, you Nit Pik have shown that Datsyuk wasn't used last year much but now you regurgitate stats that show he has been used quite extensively in that capacity, what's your point I'm pretty sure you know what mine is.

Are you making any discernable point or are you nit piking?

I'm a Leaf fan, I wish the Cdn Junior team well every year but I'm only truly concerned what he can do for TO, I'm looking for him to be properly groomed to be a Leaf now so if he's one of TO's better players in training camp then I think he should make the team.

The decision for a player to make the team out of the preseason isn't going to be based on their performance in games where most players aren't even trying.  It's going to be a total picture assessment based on offseason workouts and where the team views him in his individual development process. 

We also don't really have a good idea for how Babcock is going to work with players in Toronto at this point.  Oe would assume that his coaching style won't change, but we need to see that to be sure.  He wasn't exactly dealing with rosters of young players in Detroit...and the young players that he was working with had a lot of seasoning in the minors before he got his hands on them on a daily basis.

The NHL isn't a development league.  If the Leafs feel that Marner has a lot of things they want him to work on, struggling with them in a league where size IS going to be an issue isn't the right place to work on those things. 

We also know what calibre of coaching Marner will get if he goes back to Junior hockey, and that's a pretty solid one in London with Dale.  The Knights have a very deep roster this year that could be adding two significant defensemen so they are poised to make a deep playoff run and potentially go for another Memorial Cup.  Going back to London is a good place for Marner to work on his size, faceoffs and advancing his good defensive instincts.  He would also be the de facto leader on the Knights with Dvorak and Domi graduating to the Coyotes/their better AHL team.

What you're saying is that size should be a valid reason to exclude a player from a team, maybe, but I think Johnny Hockey would disagree or St.Louis, Gallagher, Gretzky, etc. There is a definite bias against smaller players but that doesn't mean it's a good bias, it's more of a wives tale than factually substantiated.

If there was no coaching, no development in the NHL then AHL players should be as competent and NHL ready as NHL players because they're already been prepared to handle what happens in the NHL, especially AHL all-stars like Brennan. I guess all those times RC would get very animated behind the bench was actually him yelling at players I Luv You, I Luv You, I Luv You, who knew I thought he was coaching telling them that they pis... him off because they weren't doing what's expected of them, that's coaching. If I might be right do you think it's possible that he might have sicked his ass. coaches on the player to help that person to do it right the next time, that's my definition of coaching.

A classic example of a player who went thru both his full junior time and extensive AHL time is Kadri who because of his skill could successfully  stick handle around 3 or 4 players while maintaining possession of the puck which is something that he can't do in the NHL, his desire to continue to do the same things that made him successful in junior and the AHL had to be coached out of him in the NHL, that's NHL coaching.
Kadri has been in the NHL and been a center his entire life as far as I know and he is still a crappy face off player, I think he's getting better but surprise he's improving in the NHL which is where he needs to be better as far as I'm concerned.

What more can be expected from a player who's dominated in junior, not much to me anyway, he was utilized as a center by London occasionally or more, I'm sure Nik Pik can tell us the exact amount of time, he's conquered that obstacle it's time to move on, the AHL is not an option.

A player doesn't need to play in junior to play in the WJC, so keeping him in junior simply to play there is nonsensical. I think leaders are born not taught.

 

[bustaheims]

I have stated that some star players aren't used on the PK while others are, you Nit Pik have shown that Datsyuk wasn't used last year much but now you regurgitate stats that show he has been used quite extensively in that capacity, what's your point I'm pretty sure you know what mine is.

Are you making any discernable point or are you nit piking?

You do realize that those numbers mean he's averaged around 1 minute a game of PK time since 02/03. That's hard quite "extensively."

 

[L K]

What you're saying is that size should be a valid reason to exclude a player from a team, maybe, but I think Johnny Hockey would disagree or St.Louis, Gallagher, Gretzky, etc. There is a definite bias against smaller players but that doesn't mean it's a good bias, it's more of a wives tale than factually substantiated.

Ignoring the fact that pre-draft you were telling everyone how Marner was awful because of his lack of size, no, I'm not saying that size alone is a valid reason to not have him on the roster.  I'm saying that strength and conditioning, along with developing his faceoff skills, along with improving his two-way game, along with taking on a leadership role with the Knights and likely Team Canada are reasons to not have him play in the NHL this year.

From a Leafs standpoint, not burning one of the years of his ELC would be a phenomenal thing.  The cap destroys teams for the most part.  Having your best players leech beyond their bridge contracts when the team is just starting to get good isn't a great way to ensure multiple years of cup contention...it's a great way to have a one-and-done type of system.

If there was no coaching, no development in the NHL then AHL players should be as competent and NHL ready as NHL players because they're already been prepared to handle what happens in the NHL, especially AHL all-stars like Brennan. I guess all those times RC would get very animated behind the bench was actually him yelling at players I Luv You, I Luv You, I Luv You, who knew I thought he was coaching telling them that they pis... him off because they weren't doing what's expected of them, that's coaching. If I might be right do you think it's possible that he might have sicked his ass. coaches on the player to help that person to do it right the next time, that's my definition of coaching.

What you are describing is refinement and regiment, not development.  If you are teaching your NHL players fundamentals, your organizational structure is broken.

A classic example of a player who went thru both his full junior time and extensive AHL time is Kadri

I agree that Kadri has been mishandled by the Leafs, but not for the same reason.  The problem with Kadri was there was no consistency.  He was jerked up and down and the message wasn't the same. 

 

[Kin]

I have stated that some star players aren't used on the PK while others are, you Nit Pik have shown that Datsyuk wasn't used last year much but now you regurgitate stats that show he has been used quite extensively in that capacity, what's your point I'm pretty sure you know what mine is.

I genuinely don't know what your point is. Or, at the very least, you're so resistant to and resentful of actual facts creeping into the conversation that your point is muddled beyond falsehoods and poorly constructed arguments that it's largely meaningless. 

You've cited Thornton as an example of a star player a team shouldn't build around but Thornton is someone who's been used as "extensively" on the PK as any of the guys you laud as being all situation guys.

More to the point though, there are lots of examples of teams winning with one of their star players not having a regular PK shift. Teams like the Blackhawks with Kane and the Ducks with Perry this year or the Lightning with Stamkos or the Penguins with their two stars.

But again, none of that is really relevant to the issue which is what is better for Marner's development. You've put forth the idea that it's the NHL because of Babcock but the examples you give of good all-around players, that you hope Marner turns out to be, are guys who didn't go that route.

As usual, your arguments are full of angry rhetoric and frustration that people out there don't just buy into your garbage unthinkingly but very short on actual fact. More than that, you angrily reject facts as being meaningless diversions.

And the ridiculousness of it all is that the two guys you brought up as being such good examples of the sort of players we want Marner to be, Getzlaf and Perry, were in the exact situation Marner's in. They got drafted by a team coached by Mike Babcock. They both then got sent back for two full junior seasons.

So it really makes no sense to use those guys as examples of the end result you want while entirely ignoring the process of how they got there.