Nonis, Horachek and assistants fired

[Heroic Shrimp]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saKRZEMqdis[/youtube]

 

[Pick]

What does that stat mean really? Whoever it was that played all those games certainly didn't help the Leafs. So what does the stat mean.....absolutely nothing

It means that the scouts aren't to blame for the bad decisions management makes once those players are drafted.

I agree that the bigger problem lies elsewhere in the organization but Biggs was a bad pick....so was Schenn and after 4 years, Kadri still hasn't shown that he could be the top center Leafs were expected him to be.Also, although its too early to tell, I believe time will prove that Gauthier was not 1st round material. Percy? Again too early to tell, but will probably be OK for a late first rounder.

Reilly and Nylander look like good picks, but that's only two out of the last 6 and that's assuming they will meet expectations - so far none have. That's a horrible record for a team that had the advantage of picking relatively high due to low finishes.

 

[Kin]

I agree that the bigger problem lies elsewhere in the organization but Biggs was a bad pick....so was Schenn and after 4 years, Kadri still hasn't shown that he could be the top center Leafs were expected him to be.Also, although its too early to tell, I believe time will prove that Gauthier was not 1st round material. Percy? Again too early to tell, but will probably be OK for a late first rounder.

Reilly and Nylander look like good picks, but that's only two out of the last 6 and that's assuming they will meet expectations - so far none have. That's a horrible record for a team that had the advantage of picking relatively high due to low finishes.

I generally think that 1st round picks don't reflect too heavily on an amateur scouting group. I typically think that's a GM's responsibility. I think they provide info, but 1st rounders will be scouted by a GM and the ultimate decision will be a GM's.

I also think you're kind of misrepresenting the team's draft record. Despite what you think Kadri was expected to be it's pretty hard to look at that draft and see anyone they definitely should have taken over him at that spot. Outside of Ryan O'Reilly, there isn't anyone else in that draft class who was taken after Kadri and remotely resembles a "top centre" so if that's what they were looking for with that pick, they more or less did as well as possible. 

Then you have Biggs, Percy and Gauthier who admittedly aren't great but weren't high draft picks either. Lots of teams struggle to turn picks in the 20's into good players.

Finally you have Schenn who it's hard to get around him looking like a bad pick but what I think is undeniable about him is that he was a consensus top 5 pick. Nobody was surprised by the pick. He was acclaimed as a player deserving of that draft spot. That doesn't absolve Fletcher and the staff for it but to me Schenn is more an example of how scouting will never be an exact science rather than any failures of an individual scout.

 

[ZBBM]

I agree that the bigger problem lies elsewhere in the organization but Biggs was a bad pick....so was Schenn and after 4 years, Kadri still hasn't shown that he could be the top center Leafs were expected him to be.Also, although its too early to tell, I believe time will prove that Gauthier was not 1st round material. Percy? Again too early to tell, but will probably be OK for a late first rounder.

Reilly and Nylander look like good picks, but that's only two out of the last 6 and that's assuming they will meet expectations - so far none have. That's a horrible record for a team that had the advantage of picking relatively high due to low finishes.

I generally think that 1st round picks don't reflect too heavily on an amateur scouting group. I typically think that's a GM's responsibility. I think they provide info, but 1st rounders will be scouted by a GM and the ultimate decision will be a GM's.

I also think you're kind of misrepresenting the team's draft record. Despite what you think Kadri was expected to be it's pretty hard to look at that draft and see anyone they definitely should have taken over him at that spot. Outside of Ryan O'Reilly, there isn't anyone else in that draft class who was taken after Kadri and remotely resembles a "top centre" so if that's what they were looking for with that pick, they more or less did as well as possible. 

Then you have Biggs, Percy and Gauthier who admittedly aren't great but weren't high draft picks either. Lots of teams struggle to turn picks in the 20's into good players.

Finally you have Schenn who it's hard to get around him looking like a bad pick but what I think is undeniable about him is that he was a consensus top 5 pick. Nobody was surprised by the pick. He was acclaimed as a player deserving of that draft spot. That doesn't absolve Fletcher and the staff for it but to me Schenn is more an example of how scouting will never be an exact science rather than any failures of an individual scout.

This is true. I remember some scouts saying he was the best defensive prospect in the last 25 years. The next Pronger.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I agree that the bigger problem lies elsewhere in the organization but Biggs was a bad pick....so was Schenn and after 4 years, Kadri still hasn't shown that he could be the top center Leafs were expected him to be.Also, although its too early to tell, I believe time will prove that Gauthier was not 1st round material. Percy? Again too early to tell, but will probably be OK for a late first rounder.

Reilly and Nylander look like good picks, but that's only two out of the last 6 and that's assuming they will meet expectations - so far none have. That's a horrible record for a team that had the advantage of picking relatively high due to low finishes.

I generally think that 1st round picks don't reflect too heavily on an amateur scouting group. I typically think that's a GM's responsibility. I think they provide info, but 1st rounders will be scouted by a GM and the ultimate decision will be a GM's.

I also think you're kind of misrepresenting the team's draft record. Despite what you think Kadri was expected to be it's pretty hard to look at that draft and see anyone they definitely should have taken over him at that spot. Outside of Ryan O'Reilly, there isn't anyone else in that draft class who was taken after Kadri and remotely resembles a "top centre" so if that's what they were looking for with that pick, they more or less did as well as possible. 

Then you have Biggs, Percy and Gauthier who admittedly aren't great but weren't high draft picks either. Lots of teams struggle to turn picks in the 20's into good players.

Finally you have Schenn who it's hard to get around him looking like a bad pick but what I think is undeniable about him is that he was a consensus top 5 pick. Nobody was surprised by the pick. He was acclaimed as a player deserving of that draft spot. That doesn't absolve Fletcher and the staff for it but to me Schenn is more an example of how scouting will never be an exact science rather than any failures of an individual scout.

This is true. I remember some scouts saying he was the best defensive prospect in the last 25 years. The next Pronger.

He's a good example of a player coming along and reminding people of elite shutdown D of the past in a league that has by and large moved beyond that type of defenseman.

 

[herman]

I agree that the bigger problem lies elsewhere in the organization but Biggs was a bad pick....so was Schenn and after 4 years, Kadri still hasn't shown that he could be the top center Leafs were expected him to be.Also, although its too early to tell, I believe time will prove that Gauthier was not 1st round material. Percy? Again too early to tell, but will probably be OK for a late first rounder.

Reilly and Nylander look like good picks, but that's only two out of the last 6 and that's assuming they will meet expectations - so far none have. That's a horrible record for a team that had the advantage of picking relatively high due to low finishes.

I generally think that 1st round picks don't reflect too heavily on an amateur scouting group. I typically think that's a GM's responsibility. I think they provide info, but 1st rounders will be scouted by a GM and the ultimate decision will be a GM's.

I also think you're kind of misrepresenting the team's draft record. Despite what you think Kadri was expected to be it's pretty hard to look at that draft and see anyone they definitely should have taken over him at that spot. Outside of Ryan O'Reilly, there isn't anyone else in that draft class who was taken after Kadri and remotely resembles a "top centre" so if that's what they were looking for with that pick, they more or less did as well as possible. 

Then you have Biggs, Percy and Gauthier who admittedly aren't great but weren't high draft picks either. Lots of teams struggle to turn picks in the 20's into good players.

Finally you have Schenn who it's hard to get around him looking like a bad pick but what I think is undeniable about him is that he was a consensus top 5 pick. Nobody was surprised by the pick. He was acclaimed as a player deserving of that draft spot. That doesn't absolve Fletcher and the staff for it but to me Schenn is more an example of how scouting will never be an exact science rather than any failures of an individual scout.

This is true. I remember some scouts saying he was the best defensive prospect in the last 25 years. The next Pronger.

The game evolved while they were scouting him into something faster than Schenn could keep up with. Mobility is the new baseline requirement (no longer size).

 

[Andy007]

Gauthier, btw, was slated to be drafted right around where the Leafs picked on just about every single mock fantasy draft. Some had him going even earlier, actually.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Gauthier, btw, was slated to be drafted right around where the Leafs picked on just about every single mock fantasy draft. Some had him going even earlier, actually.

Yep.  From what I've read I think most of the criticism of this pick is from people who think the Leafs should have gone for a skilled/higher upside player who produced better offensively in his draft year.  There's always a few who fall into the 2nd round each year (someone like Tyler Toffoli to name one off the top of my head).

 

[Kin]

I think Gauthier is, to some extent, also sort of an example of what people are saying about Schenn. I think there's kind of this idea that if you get a really solid defensive centre he's going to be a "third liner" and play 16-17 minutes a night but as I've said elsewhere if a player is offensively limited and not a great skater he can still have value on the PK but he's probably not going to play on the third line. I think some teams, and the Leafs may very well be a part of this, are slow to realize that.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

This is true. I remember some scouts saying he was the best defensive prospect in the last 25 years. The next Pronger.

Reminds me of a funny article from awhile back: http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2013/11/26/5148828/chris-pronger-comparison-nhl-draft

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I wouldn't draft a single player, even in the 7th round, who doesn't have speed and skill. You want Frederik Gauthier types? Go sign Daniel Winnik instead.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

This is true. I remember some scouts saying he was the best defensive prospect in the last 25 years. The next Pronger.

Reminds me of a funny article from awhile back: http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2013/11/26/5148828/chris-pronger-comparison-nhl-draft

I googled stuff on Schenn from 2008 and found:

Mckeen's Prospect Rankings editor called Schenn the "best defensive defenseman to come from the draft in maybe two decade"
- Schenn also possesses very underrated offensive abilities, as most people are inclined to think of him simply as a stay-at-home defender
- One scout noted "Schenn moves the puck with the kind of robotic composure most junior forwards won't see until they reach the pro ranks"
- He's drawn comparisons to Nashville's Shea Weber offensively

In a perfect world, he becomes: An elite shutdown defender capable of contributing 30-35 points and perennial all-star

http://my.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?user_id=32601&post_id=5512

Those were good times.

 

[Kin]

I do kind of get what they're saying about Schenn's offensive potential though. I did think he had a good head for the offensive side of the game and often found himself in decent position in the offensive zone, he just had absolutely nothing resembling a shot or hands or creativity. Scoring 20+ points isn't anything special, sure, but he wasn't awful offensively his last two years here.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm still waiting for my darkhorse, Mikhail Stefanovich.  Once he gets motivated, watch out!

 

[ZBBM]

I'm still waiting for my darkhorse, Mikhail Stefanovich.  Once he gets motivated, watch out!

Soooooooooglobov or whatever his name was.