Of Nonis, Babcock & who the heck is going to be running this asylum on draft day

[Kin]

Especially when they're looking to work again as a head coach.  After hearing so much from Wilson after being fired, I think Carlyle actually handled himself pretty well in that interview.  I kind of felt bad for him when he was let go, too, but that's life as a NHL coach.  I think he'll be working again in the next season or two, but have serious doubts about Wilson.

If someone interviews Randy Carlyle in the next little while he's going to have to answer some tough questions about the possession numbers here and in Anaheim when he left. Either he'll have found religion when it comes to this modern age or I really don't see him behind the bench again.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Especially when they're looking to work again as a head coach.  After hearing so much from Wilson after being fired, I think Carlyle actually handled himself pretty well in that interview.  I kind of felt bad for him when he was let go, too, but that's life as a NHL coach.  I think he'll be working again in the next season or two, but have serious doubts about Wilson.

If someone interviews Randy Carlyle in the next little while he's going to have to answer some tough questions about the possession numbers here and in Anaheim when he left. Either he'll have found religion when it comes to this modern age or I really don't see him behind the bench again.

He definitely has some explaining to do, but you think he would have had to when the Leafs hired him.  There seems to be a slow influx of younger coaches coming into the league, but a number of guys always seem to be recycled/rehired.  I think if Randy coaches again, it will be for an organization that knows him as a person and player, in addition to a coach.  Like in Toronto, he probably got that job based on his relationship with Burke from Anaheim more than what his numbers ultimately showed in 6+ seasons as a coach.

 

[Kin]

He definitely has some explaining to do, but you think he would have had to when the Leafs hired him. 

Nah, his mentality fit in at that point. Burke wasn't quick on the numbers bandwagon either so Carlyle didn't need to be. He probably just made up some words like Pugilitastic or Toughnacious and Burke hired him.

 

[L K]

He definitely has some explaining to do, but you think he would have had to when the Leafs hired him. 

Nah, his mentality fit in at that point. Burke wasn't quick on the numbers bandwagon either so Carlyle didn't need to be. He probably just made up some words like Pugilitastic or Toughnacious and Burke hired him.

Well that and Burke pretty much just hired everyone he had in Anaheim over in Toronto. 

Nonis, Loiselle, Allaire, Carlyle, etc.  I don't think it had much to do with "interviewing" so much as Burke was trying to recreate Anaheim in Toronto.  The problem is he tried to build around that with an empty cupboard that lacked a Getzlaf and Perry already in the fold.

 

[cw]

If this team had Scotty Bowman (30 years younger) as head coach, a modern day Knute Rockne as an assistant coach along with any other coaches you desire, I think this team flames out miserably regardless.

Carlyle had some significant flaws (like his dated top6-bottom6 view of the league). So did Wilson and Horachek. But they're not nearly as bad as the team they tried to coach. This is a not a good collection of hockey players - one of the worst Leafs teams I've ever seen - even though they had some skill.

The coaches deserve some criticism as do the GMs but to me, it pales in comparison. This is a really bad collection of hockey players - a team without a soul.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

The coaches deserve some criticism as do the GMs but to me, it pales in comparison. This is a really bad collection of hockey players - a team without a soul.

So if it's one of the worst collection of hockey players you've ever seen on the Leafs how do you assign the GMs only "some" criticism?

 

[cw]

The coaches deserve some criticism as do the GMs but to me, it pales in comparison. This is a really bad collection of hockey players - a team without a soul.

So if it's one of the worst collection of hockey players you've ever seen on the Leafs how do you assign the GMs only "some" criticism?

The GM deserve a big bunch of the criticism - far more than the coaches. They put this club together. So I didn't express myself very well. Burke and Nonis carry a lot of blame for this mess.

But where I'm so down on this group of players is they have more skill than many of the worst Leafs clubs. And on that basis, I can cut the GM a little more slack than normal. A hunk of their problem is between the ears. Now, the next rebuttal will probably be "but isn't the GM ultimately responsible for that too"? Yep, he's stuck with the whole enchilada. 

But Reimer, Bernier, Robidas, Polak and others spoke out about what was going on. And it seemed that the things they talked about were not deeply GM issues - they were about effort, playing defense first - putting the team first, etc. I don't think it's  unfair for a GM to accept a players word he'll do that. And that the player should bear more of the heat when they do not. This team has that problem as bad as any Leafs team I've ever seen if not worse. When that happens I'm more ticked off at the players than the GM who assembled them - because according to their own teammates, it is something they could have done better at.

 

[bustaheims]

When, halfway through the season, it's made public that your team's president intends to for a significant roster overhaul that includes a number of the current key players being moved out, I'm willing to cut a lot of these busy some slack for no longer putting the team first and such. There was a pretty clear signal that a lot of guy wouldn't be here next season, and, with that knowledge, it's easy to see why maybe they might not have been quite as invested as we may have hoped they would be. I mean, it's basic human psychology. You're not going to put as much effort in when you're no longer invested in something.

 

[Kin]

When, halfway through the season, it's made public that your team's president intends to for a significant roster overhaul that includes a number of the current key players being moved out, I'm willing to cut a lot of these busy some slack for no longer putting the team first and such. There was a pretty clear signal that a lot of guy wouldn't be here next season, and, with that knowledge, it's easy to see why maybe they might not have been quite as invested as we may have hoped they would be. I mean, it's basic human psychology. You're not going to put as much effort in when you're no longer invested in something.

Well, and beyond that just like there's no hockey coach that could have turned this team into a champion there's no level of effort on the part of the flawed players on the roster that could have done that either. It doesn't matter how many coaches or GM's ask Phil Kessel to play more like Marian Hossa, it's not something he can do and no matter how many invented conversations between GM and player someone comes up with, there's no reasonable way that anyone signing him to an extension could have expected that. Tyler Bozak trying his hardest is still Tyler Bozak.

And like you it's hard not to see the organization's fingerprints all over what happened in the latter half of the season(which, it's important to note, is probably long-term a good thing for the franchise). Burke, the guy with the grand vision that the team believed in, got fired for...who knows? Board members swinging their junk around? Any claims that it was due to personnel decisions falls flat because they went out and hired his #2 the interim who then ran the team exactly like Burke did and was rewarded with the full-time job. Leiweke, who likes to talk endlessly about other people's poor character, quits the job he was hired for with great fanfare without delivering anything close to what he said he would because....I don't know, his wife found out that it snows in Toronto. He's the guy who's going to criticize someone else's effort and dedication? Hope that MLSE money spends well, Tim.

Carlyle's coaching tenure was marked by stubbornness. The team's record after he left isn't a testament to his wisdom, it's to the fact that he had a hand in many of the frankly baffling personnel decisions made while he was around. Grabo, Kulemin and MacArthur would have been good players under Horacheck but they were sacrifices on the altar of their coach's obstinacy. When he got fired and someone else got brought in and the team that was shaped to his way of doing things didn't do well under another way of doing things? The idea that it vindicates him in any way is insane.

Dysfunction runs top down. Quite honestly it's amazing it took as long to get into the locker room as it did.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

 

[cw]

When, halfway through the season, it's made public that your team's president intends to for a significant roster overhaul that includes a number of the current key players being moved out, I'm willing to cut a lot of these busy some slack for no longer putting the team first and such. There was a pretty clear signal that a lot of guy wouldn't be here next season, and, with that knowledge, it's easy to see why maybe they might not have been quite as invested as we may have hoped they would be. I mean, it's basic human psychology. You're not going to put as much effort in when you're no longer invested in something.

Ok, let's play with that excuse .. as if it's really acceptable even though I question how acceptable it really is:

on Feb 12th, 2015 (after 67% of the season had been played):
Shanahan?s scorched-earth Leafs plan wins MLSE support
CATHAL KELLY
TORONTO ? The Globe and Mail
Published Thursday, Feb. 12 2015, 5:00 AM EST

So on Feb 12, 2015, one 100% innuendo based media rumour article because it had no quotes or substantiation is published saying Shanahan is going to nuke the team (you know, the media the players supposedly hate and don't read ..).

That's not a very impressive characteristic in terms of what it takes to end the season for these guys. BUT ...

what were the players thinking Jan 8th - many weeks before that article?
Jan 8 2015 Sportsnet link
"Because it's hard work," Polak said before Wednesday's 6-2 loss to Washington. "It's always tough to do something you know you don't like to do. I think we have lots of guys that just want to play offence."
...
"We're beating ourselves," said veteran defenceman Stephane Robidas, another newcomer. "You've got to have the other team earn what they got. ... We need to take pride in playing well defensively and be hard to play against.
...
All of which brings us back to the million-dollar question: Will the message sent by Carlyle's firing and a stronger voice for Horachek be enough to accomplish it?

"It's tough to say," said Polak. "I don't know. As a coach, you can do whatever you want, but the guys have to listen too. It's not just the coach's fault; it's the guys, too, because they have to listen and they have to understand what the coach wants from them.

"If they don't, it doesn't matter what kind of coach you have."


Now he smoothed it over some with that last quote because if you go through everything that was said, they had a pretty good understanding of what the coached wanted. They were simply unwilling to do it.

Or days before when Reimer went off on them:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=752529
"smarten up and really play the way we can and with passion and like men."

Ignoring prior seasons, there was talk about some of this stuff going back to Carlyle and other players last fall.

I think you have it in reverse: these guys basically packed it in long before February 12th and then the February 12th article came out saying what Shanahan was going to do about it.

To start the season, they had a chance to prove Leiweke wrong:
Sep 12, 2014 - "There are players we have in our organization today whose numbers are off-the-chart good, and whose character is just terrible."
but instead, they effectively proved Leiweke right well before February 12, 2015.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

In reference to the thread title, this sheds a little light on how things are going.  From the interview with Kyle Dubas I posted in the draft thread:

On the management dynamic under Shanahan:
It?s evolved through the year. I?ve been here since middle of July; Brandon Pridham came on a month later. Reid Mitchell has been here longer than anybody and he brings a lot of great value and experience to our staff as well. We had myself, Brendan, Dave, then we brought Mark Hunter in late October. Especially over the last few months, I?ve talked to Mark 2 or 3 times each day; we talk about players, we talk about trades, we talk about players we?ve seen for the draft. We talk about free agents and college and so on and so forth. We take that and present it formally to Dave and to Brendan, and now it?s to Brendan. The way it?s evolved in the last week is really a thee-way, four-way discussion about all different topics. It?s a really open dialogue; back and forth, agreeing/disagreeing, challenging one another. That?s been a lot of fun. That was the part I enjoyed most about being in Sault Ste. Marie, especially with Sheldon Keefe. He and I could disagree on a whole host of topics, as I could with all our staff there, whether it was Wes Clark or Victor Carneiro, it was never a groupthink, it was a lot of challenging and back and forth. I think, even here when you disagree, you know people aren?t disagreeing to be personal, they?re disagreeing to make sure we?re going to be right by the Toronto Maple Leafs. That?s been the most encouraging and fun part here, especially of late. When I say of late I go back to the trade deadline and the moves we made then, having everybody involved and full discussion with one another, having everybody ? even if they disagreed at first ? at least accepting and understanding why we were doing things.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/04/20/toronto-maple-leafs-kyle-dubas/

 

[Kin]

I have to be honest, that makes me more confused as to who has the final say, not less.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I have to be honest, that makes me more confused as to who has the final say, not less.

Seems clear to me, they all have an open dialogue and present their findings to Brendan who makes the final call for now.

 

[Kin]

I have to be honest, that makes me more confused as to who has the final say, not less.

Seems clear to me, they all have an open dialogue and present their findings to Brendan who makes the final call for now.

It's the for now part that's confusing. When Nonis was here it was presented to Brendan and Dave so I assume that when a new GM comes in it'll be presented to Brendan and ______

So past that, who's making the call?

 

[cw]

I have to be honest, that makes me more confused as to who has the final say, not less.

Seems clear to me, they all have an open dialogue and present their findings to Brendan who makes the final call for now.

But that is management. One guy cannot do everything or know everything.

On draft day for example, I really doubt Shanahan is going to make the calls. They're not going to turn to Brendan and say "Who are you going to pick this round, Brendan?" Mark Hunter or one of his people will make those calls.

Is Shanahan going to answer questions in the meetings on the Leafs effective use of cap space? No, he's got a Pridham for that.

That happened when Brian Burke was GM. Sometimes Burke would credit Nonis or someone else for a trade for example.

Shanahan is charted to get a GM so he probably won't be as involved with that later on. Right now, maybe he's a tie breaker on some of the management by committee discussions - like any interim GM would be. They're talking, brainstorming and debating just like any management team. I don't have a gigantic problem with that because it's pretty normal.

 

[herman]

In reference to the thread title, this sheds a little light on how things are going.  From the interview with Kyle Dubas I posted in the draft thread:

On the management dynamic under Shanahan:
It?s evolved through the year. I?ve been here since middle of July; Brandon Pridham came on a month later. Reid Mitchell has been here longer than anybody and he brings a lot of great value and experience to our staff as well. We had myself, Brendan, Dave, then we brought Mark Hunter in late October. Especially over the last few months, I?ve talked to Mark 2 or 3 times each day; we talk about players, we talk about trades, we talk about players we?ve seen for the draft. We talk about free agents and college and so on and so forth. We take that and present it formally to Dave and to Brendan, and now it?s to Brendan. The way it?s evolved in the last week is really a thee-way, four-way discussion about all different topics. It?s a really open dialogue; back and forth, agreeing/disagreeing, challenging one another. That?s been a lot of fun. That was the part I enjoyed most about being in Sault Ste. Marie, especially with Sheldon Keefe. He and I could disagree on a whole host of topics, as I could with all our staff there, whether it was Wes Clark or Victor Carneiro, it was never a groupthink, it was a lot of challenging and back and forth. I think, even here when you disagree, you know people aren?t disagreeing to be personal, they?re disagreeing to make sure we?re going to be right by the Toronto Maple Leafs. That?s been the most encouraging and fun part here, especially of late. When I say of late I go back to the trade deadline and the moves we made then, having everybody involved and full discussion with one another, having everybody ? even if they disagreed at first ? at least accepting and understanding why we were doing things.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/04/20/toronto-maple-leafs-kyle-dubas/

What a great interview.

 

[skrackle]

The coaches deserve some criticism as do the GMs but to me, it pales in comparison. This is a really bad collection of hockey players - a team without a soul.

The Skating Dead.

I smell a hit series. Might even save the CBC.

 

[Bullfrog]

But that is management. One guy cannot do everything or know everything.

On draft day for example, I really doubt Shanahan is going to make the calls. They're not going to turn to Brendan and say "Who are you going to pick this round, Brendan?" Mark Hunter or one of his people will make those calls.
...

Of course they're not going to turn to Shanahan and ask him that question. What management structure works like that? You present your findings or opinions to the manager with options as required and they make the final call. If that final call is "I'm comfortable with you making the decision" then there it is. Somebody makes the call.

 

[L K]

But that is management. One guy cannot do everything or know everything.

On draft day for example, I really doubt Shanahan is going to make the calls. They're not going to turn to Brendan and say "Who are you going to pick this round, Brendan?" Mark Hunter or one of his people will make those calls.
...

Of course they're not going to turn to Shanahan and ask him that question. What management structure works like that? You present your findings or opinions to the manager with options as required and they make the final call. If that final call is "I'm comfortable with you making the decision" then there it is. Somebody makes the call.

I think there is a reasonable chance that this is exactly how Daryl Katz operates the Oilers.