Of Nonis, Babcock & who the heck is going to be running this asylum on draft day

[Kin]

Does Babcock contribute on the management side in Detroit?

As CtB mentioned that has been the topic of ae lot of conversation regarding Babcock and his supposed unhappiness in Detroit. Obviously every coach is going to have some input on the management side of things(it would seem foolish, for instance, to trade for a player without asking the coach's opinion of how he'd fit in) but in terms of actual control it seems like Babcock has bristled at having a GM with as much authority as Holland has.

I mean at this point if nothing else the fact that Babcock hasn't signed an extension is a pretty unmistakable sign that he's got serious question marks about how he fits into the organization in the long term.

 

[Kin]

My guess is that Babcock is going to do something like that and therefore, Toronto has little chance of landing him. He's more likely to go to a club with a decent roster now that can contend (take Cup shots) for a number of years.

There aren't too many clubs like that who'll be looking for a coach. Buffalo's still a ways away, Philadelphia isn't on the precipice of contender-dom, San Jose has a separate raft of problems...other than a potential opening in St. Louis(who might be facing their own tough questions this off-season) there really isn't that sort of team out there.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

There aren't too many clubs like that who'll be looking for a coach. Buffalo's still a ways away, Philadelphia isn't on the precipice of contender-dom, San Jose has a separate raft of problems...other than a potential opening in St. Louis(who might be facing their own tough questions this off-season) there really isn't that sort of team out there.

Pittsburgh would have been an interesting landing spot for him (not that they're a perfect team either). Rutherford has said that they'll keep Johnston but if Babcock becomes available that could easily change.

 

[Frank E]

My guess is that Babcock is going to do something like that and therefore, Toronto has little chance of landing him. He's more likely to go to a club with a decent roster now that can contend (take Cup shots) for a number of years.

There aren't too many clubs like that who'll be looking for a coach. Buffalo's still a ways away, Philadelphia isn't on the precipice of contender-dom, San Jose has a separate raft of problems...other than a potential opening in St. Louis(who might be facing their own tough questions this off-season) there really isn't that sort of team out there.

Edmonton?

 

[Kin]

Pittsburgh would have been an interesting landing spot for him (not that they're a perfect team either). Rutherford has said that they'll keep Johnston but if Babcock becomes available that could easily change.

Maybe, but Pittsburgh seems to me to have more or less the same problem as Detroit. A solidly entrenched GM with a lot of authority and wrestling with the problem of how to fill in the blanks on a team with solid front line talent.

I don't know, I really think there may be a point where we're over valuing not just Babcock but the way coaching is valued around the league. Especially if there are teams(wink, wink) who would be willing to throw serious money his way.

 

[Kin]

Edmonton?

Maybe, but then you'd have to put every single egg in the "Babcock only cares about coaching in a situation where the hard work is largely done" basket.

 

[cw]

My guess is that Babcock is going to do something like that and therefore, Toronto has little chance of landing him. He's more likely to go to a club with a decent roster now that can contend (take Cup shots) for a number of years.

There aren't too many clubs like that who'll be looking for a coach. Buffalo's still a ways away, Philadelphia isn't on the precipice of contender-dom, San Jose has a separate raft of problems...other than a potential opening in St. Louis(who might be facing their own tough questions this off-season) there really isn't that sort of team out there.

I think Edmonton, for example, is closer than a bunch of folks think.

With the addition of McDavid, they already have enough young talent for a decent top 6. If they were to add Babcock, a good goalie or dman is almost sure to follow. Patch up that D/goaltending and contend.

Can Edmonton afford him? With the new building revenue, probably.

One example.

Another team I was wondering about was the Pens and Babcock. Just because a team has a coach doesn't mean they can't upgrade.

There are only 30 teams. He's a smart guy. He'll figure it out. But I doubt his first choice would be Toronto with Shanahan's management structure and lack of talent needed to contend.

 

[Frank E]

Edmonton?

Maybe, but then you'd have to put every single egg in the "Babcock only cares about coaching in a situation where the hard work is largely done" basket.

I wouldn't characterize the Edmonton situation as "the hard work is largely done."

I would think the Edmonton situation would be perfect for Babcock, except it's in Edmonton.

 

[bustaheims]

I wouldn't characterize the Edmonton situation as "the hard work is largely done."

Yeah, I'm not sure about that, either. A number of the bigger, more obviously important steps have been taken, but there's still a lot of work to be done to turn the Oilers into a legit Cup contender. They still need a lot of help in terms of depth, defence, goaltending and structure.

I think the bigger things that would turn Babcock away from Edmonton (aside from it being Edmonton) is their management structure still being a bit of a gong show, and I'm not sure how much influence he'd have in decision making with Chiarelli now in charge.

 

[Kin]

I wouldn't characterize the Edmonton situation as "the hard work is largely done."

I think that when you weigh what they'll have to do to build a contender from here on in vs. being a terrible franchise for 6 years in order to build up the talent base they have, I'm pretty confident with how the scales would tip there in terms of what's harder for an organization to accomplish.

 

[Kin]

There are only 30 teams. He's a smart guy. He'll figure it out. But I doubt his first choice would be Toronto with Shanahan's management structure and lack of talent needed to contend.

Well, as Carlton's post pointed out the extent to which any management structure is the one Babcock wants to be in is very much a bone of contention right now. Personally, I think if he just wanted to be in a place with a good roster, under a smart GM in full control and where he could make a lot of money, he'd already be extended in Detroit.

To my mind, the fact that he's not there says that of those three things, he wants a differing set of circumstances in at least two. Either he wants a better roster, more control over player-personnel decisions or he wants to go somewhere for the money. To me, two of those favour the Leafs.

 

[ZBBM]

There are only 30 teams. He's a smart guy. He'll figure it out. But I doubt his first choice would be Toronto with Shanahan's management structure and lack of talent needed to contend.

Well, as Carlton's post pointed out the extent to which any management structure is the one Babcock wants to be in is very much a bone of contention right now. Personally, I think if he just wanted to be in a place with a good roster, under a smart GM in full control and where he could make a lot of money, he'd already be extended in Detroit.

To my mind, the fact that he's not there says that of those three things, he wants a differing set of circumstances in at least two. Either he wants a better roster, more control over player-personnel decisions or he wants to go somewhere for the money. To me, two of those favour the Leafs.

OK, Mr. Clickbait.  Which two? 

 

[cw]

There are only 30 teams. He's a smart guy. He'll figure it out. But I doubt his first choice would be Toronto with Shanahan's management structure and lack of talent needed to contend.

Well, as Carlton's post pointed out the extent to which any management structure is the one Babcock wants to be in is very much a bone of contention right now. Personally, I think if he just wanted to be in a place with a good roster, under a smart GM in full control and where he could make a lot of money, he'd already be extended in Detroit.

To my mind, the fact that he's not there says that of those three things, he wants a differing set of circumstances in at least two. Either he wants a better roster, more control over player-personnel decisions or he wants to go somewhere for the money. To me, two of those favour the Leafs.

I think he'd like to raise the bar for coaches financially. But he's made all kinds of money - I doubt it's at the top of his list.

ESPN: Babcock won't address his future, but questions Wings' composition
Babcock did not explicitly address the situation, but he still might have tipped his hand with some of the remarks he made regarding the future of the organization.

He compared the Wings with the Lightning to hammer home his point: ?We are what we are. They have a young team that, they were bad here for long enough that they were able to rebuild and get good young players, and young players at key positions. Three of our best players are 34 [Niklas Kronwall], 35 [Henrik Zetterberg] and 37 [Pavel Datsyuk]. So any way you look at it, we?re a team that?s changed a ton of players, we?re a team that?s added a lot of youth to our lineup and, right now on the outside they don?t pick us as a Stanley Cup contender.?

And Babcock seems at least somewhat concerned about the composition of the team down the road.

?We have lots of good, young players, no question about it. And we?ve got some good ones coming. But who?s going to replace [Datsyuk]?? he asked. ?I don?t think [Datsyuk] is going anywhere right away, but that?s what you?ve got to do. You?ve got to have big time players up the middle and on the back to be successful. So those are questions that our organization works toward, we?ve been drafting good, we?ve been developing good, but we?ve been winning too much. That?s the facts.?

And the problem with the Leafs is: they're not much if at all closer to "replacing Datsyuk, Zettterberg & Kronwall" than the Wings are (ignoring the fact that the Leafs don't have three players like that). Anyone suggesting Kessel would probably just make Babcock smile nicely and politely with grave apprehension. Kessel as a one way player is no Datsyuk or Zetterberg and he never will be. And even if he was, the Leafs don't have the depth of talent to surround him before he's well past his prime.

Babcock's a winner. Like Bowman, I think he really wants to win. The aging Wings talent is what is primarily discouraging him - not the size of his paycheck. If Toronto were further along with Shanahan's rebuild, it might have made sense but I doubt that makes much sense to Babcock now - it's too long and bumpy a road when there are so many other seemingly smoother or more attractive or more likely paths for him to get back to the Cup finals.

 

[Frank E]

I've read that some think he's looking for more management input...could it be that he's looking for a GM opportunity?

 

[cw]

I've read that some think he's looking for more management input...could it be that he's looking for a GM opportunity?

I don't think so. I'm sure, like Bowman, he'd like as much control over his coaching destiny as he can get -  input on personnel decisions would help but:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mike-babcock-perfectionist/
?I?m 51 years old. I?m young. I?d like to be the best in my generation. I don?t think you could ever compare yourself to Scotty Bowman because the time he coached, it?s a different era. You could keep teams together and you could have these runs. That?s just not possible in the cap world with parity. But I think you can still be good in your time. I like the game, I like the players. I like grinding it out. I like learning new things. I like the challenge of being able to do it year after year. There are a whole bunch of people who come in here and have success for one year, and then they go. Being able to do it year after year after year, that drives me.?

He could have written his own ticket with Hockey Canada in 2014 and been on the management side. I suspect, like Bowman, those days are coming anyway and he knows it. In the interim, he'll probably coach for as long as the league will tolerate him and his health permits.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Maybe, but Pittsburgh seems to me to have more or less the same problem as Detroit. A solidly entrenched GM with a lot of authority and wrestling with the problem of how to fill in the blanks on a team with solid front line talent.

I'm actually not that sure Pittsburgh has that problem. There were rumblings that Rutherford's job might not be safe after their playoff exit. And even when he was originally hired he plainly stated that he'd only be here for 2-3 years and the assumption was that he was going to be there in kind of a mentor role for Jason Botterill. I guess the problem though is that he already has 3 assistant/associate GMs under him right now, so while he may be comfortable working within a large group he might not want that group to get any bigger. But if Rutherford steps down say next season it leaves Botterill as GM and Fitzgerald and Guerin as assistants. Having somebody with Babcock's coaching experience may serve that group well from a management perspective.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Maybe, but Pittsburgh seems to me to have more or less the same problem as Detroit. A solidly entrenched GM with a lot of authority and wrestling with the problem of how to fill in the blanks on a team with solid front line talent.

I'm actually not that sure Pittsburgh has that problem. There were rumblings that Rutherford's job might not be safe after their playoff exit.

Pittsburgh's President/CEO said this (for whatever it's even worth):

http://twitter.com/JoshYohe_Trib/status/592034438248321025

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Pittsburgh's President/CEO said this (for whatever it's even worth):

http://twitter.com/JoshYohe_Trib/status/592034438248321025

I know, I just meant that the rumblings that he might have been let go could indicate that he's not exactly on 100% solid ground there. There have been questions raised about his performance there in the first year.

 

[Kin]

Like Bowman, I think he really wants to win.

That's not really a point of contention though. For me, when I read what you linked and what CtB linked, the impression I keep coming away with is that this is a guy who is frustrated by the direction of his club and wants a bigger role in how a team operates. Not a departure from coaching, no, but having something added to his portfolio. That's what I think is the primary appeal in a situation like Toronto. He would, or could, come in and have a great deal of say in how the team gets built.

No, the Leafs don't present the immediate challenge or opportunity of coaching McDavid or Crosby but I think you're underselling what Toronto could be in a year or two building around Rielly, Nylander and one of Hanifin or Strome just as a starting point. If there are deals out there for Kessel/Phaneuf that can yield legitimate assets in terms of picks/prospects there's a lot of clay there.

But to clarify, I'm not really making the case for what I think Babcock will do. I think it would be impossible to lay reasonable odds because what goes into his decision is something I don't really think is knowable to any of us. I just think it's undeniable that there are just as many potential reasons for him to take the job in Toronto as there are anywhere else.

 

[mr grieves]

I wonder whether Babcock really needs a particular management structure -- one where he can say, from the outside, "there I'll have influence!" -- in place. For instance, if Chiarelli really wants him in Edmonton, I'm sure their talks will sort out that they're on the same page and negotiations that Babcock will have the input he wants. More important, I think, will be how close a team is to the sort of roster cw's talking about. And, to some degree, the money.

Anyhow, didn't see this posted. Jonas Siegel wrote about another coach in the Red Wings organization that might be a fit for Toronto: http://www.tsn.ca/talent/next-jon-cooper-might-be-fresh-face-leafs-need-1.270219