Panthers @ Leafs - Dec. 17th, 7:00pm - LeafsTV, SN 590

[Tigger]

I have criticisms of Carlyle, don't get me wrong, but it's a two way street, when the players play like crap I'm not sure how you blame anyone else.

It's not really a two-way street.  In reality it should be.  But in pro sports, the coach gets blamed and fired before anyone else.

Think of it from Nonis' perspective, he just inked Clarkson and wants to see him score.  Clarkson has stunk, but what has Carlye done to get him going?

Short of electro shock, everything?

Fwiw, I think the loss of two of the teams top 3 centres has hurt them, in spite of Carlyle's attempt to focus on the players he has.

The Leafs have some things going for them in general but when they stop skating, turn the puck over and seem to be unable to make a pass like they are tonight, their flaws come to the fore.

 

[Stronger Than All]

I'm done.  The season is over,  let me know if we're close to a top pick eventually.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

And with Phaneuf signed we're gonna have the core of this team in place long term.

Phaneuf's been very good this season against arguably the toughest competition + zone starts in the entire NHL.  This bad game doesn't change that.

 

[Arn]

So even the refs want Carlyle sacked.

 

[Damian]

And with Phaneuf signed we're gonna have the core of this team in place long term.

Phaneuf's been very good this season against arguably the toughest competition + zone starts in the entire NHL.  This bad game doesn't change that.

and he wants $8M? LOL.... later dudez

 

[ZBBM]

And with Phaneuf signed we're gonna have the core of this team in place long term.

That is what they absolutely cannot do.  If they sign him up for 7 more years I might just give it up.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Benching Gardiner AGAIN is dumb.

 

[ZBBM]

And with Phaneuf signed we're gonna have the core of this team in place long term.

Phaneuf's been very good this season against arguably the toughest competition + zone starts in the entire NHL.  This bad game doesn't change that.

Not good enough for expected term/dough.  Period.

 

[2badknees]

Once I saw Duncan Keith have a terrible game. The Hawks were crazy to sign him.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

And with Phaneuf signed we're gonna have the core of this team in place long term.

Phaneuf's been very good this season against arguably the toughest competition + zone starts in the entire NHL.  This bad game doesn't change that.

Not good enough for expected term/dough.  Period.

Disagree and we'll leave it at that to avoid any unpleasantness.

 

[Strangelove]

And with Phaneuf signed we're gonna have the core of this team in place long term.

Phaneuf's been very good this season against arguably the toughest competition + zone starts in the entire NHL.  This bad game doesn't change that.

The team has been very bad this year with him at the helm. I'd say he's been fine, but not particularly good, though I know a lot of people would disagree with that. To me he looks slow, he gives the puck away a lot, and he doesn't always make good decisions.  I just see him as a solid defenseman who is wildly overrated in terms of the price he commands vs. what he gives you.

But regardless of that, he's undoubtedly a core member of this failing group, and I can't see how nailing this group down for a number of years is a good idea.

 

[Strangelove]

Once I saw Duncan Keith have a terrible game. The Hawks were crazy to sign him.

What an original strawman joke, 2badknees. Thank you for that.

 

[2badknees]

Once I saw Duncan Keith have a terrible game. The Hawks were crazy to sign him.

What an original strawman joke, 2badknees. Thank you for that.

I live to give!

 

[Tigger]

Raymond with the 4th highest toi in the game... edit, among Leaf forwards that is...

I think Gardiner has been pretty bad this game but I hope to see him unstuck from the bench in the third.

 

[Bonsixx]

Not watching, but three goals on 18 shots? Maybe they should have went with Bernier?

For some reason I like the chances of one goalie (whichever one it is) getting us out of this mess than alternating losses and both losing confidence...

 

[L K]

A loss tonight and they move to 3-6-0 in December
This follows a November of 4-6-3
7-12-3 over their last 22 games.  63 point pace.

 

[Strangelove]

Not watching, but three goals on 18 shots? Maybe they should have went with Bernier?

For some reason I like the chances of one goalie (whichever one it is) getting us out of this mess than alternating losses and both losing confidence...

It's not Reimer. The team looks like garbage again.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Phaneuf's getting benched in the 3rd right? Or are Gardiner and Rielly the only defencemen who have to be perfect?

 

[2badknees]

Yeah, I feel bad for anyone that paid for a ticket to see this effort.

Still, a couple quick goals, and it could be interesting. PP to start the period. A must-convert if they have any chance.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

And with Phaneuf signed we're gonna have the core of this team in place long term.

Phaneuf's been very good this season against arguably the toughest competition + zone starts in the entire NHL.  This bad game doesn't change that.

The team has been very bad this year with him at the helm. I'd say he's been fine, but not particularly good, though I know a lot of people would disagree with that. To me he looks slow, he gives the puck away a lot, and he doesn't always make good decisions.  I just see him as a solid defenseman who is wildly overrated in terms of the price he commands vs. what he gives you.

I personally think people have unrealistic expectations of what Phaneuf, or most D in the league, would provide if put in Phaneuf's position right now.  And it's hard to compare to other D in the league that you don't watch on a nightly basis or with the same intensity as we watch the Leafs.  I'd argue it's far from a given that if you were to put all of the other top D in the league into his position that they wouldn't have periods of struggle and see their offensive numbers impacted to some degree.

If you look (and put stock into) these stats Phaneuf has the 5th worst offensive zone start % among D in the league (meaning least in the offensive zone to start a shift from a faceoff) while facing tougher competition than anyone other than Jan Hejda on that list. 

He's being put in very tough positions.  I'm sure it's affecting his ability to perform in the offensive zone, as I'm sure the tough minutes take their toll (although his Pts/60 still stack up well).

And it's too difficult to comment on things such as his individual role in the team's success or failure.  There's been plenty of players I consider great or elite that never won anything that I wouldn't put on their shoulders.  I just personally don't know how to argue for or against that point.