Panthers @ Maple Leafs - Apr. 2nd, 7:30pm - SN, Fan 590

[Ozzie]

I agree. Also funny that I hadn't put that acronym together yet.
I run an all female charity tournament in Sudbury called the MK23 Memorial.

2025 MK23 Memorial Tournament | The WHA

www.womenshockeyacademy.com

You should put in a request to MK to attend the next one to help raise more money. He would do it in a second. The coincidence is inspirational.

 

[cw]

Maybe wait until we see what happens in the playoffs before throwing "everything he wants" at Marner. Playoff performance will play a large role in what they decide to do with both Marner and Tavares. Unless one or both have already decided they are leaving.

If a GM has been gawking at Marner for nine years in the NHL, after 3 stellar years in the CHL, after leading the Leafs in playoff scoring since he arrived, with a top 5 playoff ppg in Leafs history along with leading the Leafs forwards in playoff +/- since he arrived and the GM still doesn't know what Marner's got and what he is worth, that GM needs to seriously consider another line of work. Marner is not the reason they have been losing in the playoffs.

 

[Ozzie]

. Marner is not the reason they have been losing in the playoffs.

Whats the reason? I don't disagree with your statement but why do you think they lose?

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Whats the reason? I don't disagree with your statement but why do you think they lose?

According to Barney Rebel, we stink dudes.

 

[Chris]

If a GM has been gawking at Marner for nine years in the NHL, after 3 stellar years in the CHL, after leading the Leafs in playoff scoring since he arrived, with a top 5 playoff ppg in Leafs history along with leading the Leafs forwards in playoff +/- since he arrived and the GM still doesn't know what Marner's got and what he is worth, that GM needs to seriously consider another line of work. Marner is not the reason they have been losing in the playoffs.

As Ozzie said - what's the reason then?

Marner isn't _the_ reason but he is part of the reason. And he is the one whose contract is up. And he's the one who is probably going to want something like $13 or $14 million. And he's part of the group that consistently underperforms in the playoffs.

So - if he shows another level this playoffs that's a big deal. If not...why keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.

 

[cabber24]

As Ozzie said - what's the reason then?

Marner isn't _the_ reason but he is part of the reason. And he is the one whose contract is up. And he's the one who is probably going to want something like $13 or $14 million. And he's part of the group that consistently underperforms in the playoffs.

So - if he shows another level this playoffs that's a big deal. If not...why keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.

The main reason is that Core 4 used up so much of the cap that we were incomplete. Trev has done an admirable job but we're still complaining about depth scoring with 4 guys making 11M up front?

 

[Chris]

The main reason is that Core 4 used up so much of the cap that we were incomplete. Trev has done an admirable job but we're still complaining about depth scoring with 4 guys making 11M up front?

Yes! Exactly! Half the salary cap devoted to 4 forwards who all play the same type of game. It hasn't worked, yet people are so terrified of the possibility of losing one of those players. So if Marner and the rest of the core group take that long awaited step this playoff season, great. Show us that you're worth that much cap space. If not, why not change it up.

 

[cw]

Whats the reason? I don't disagree with your statement but why do you think they lose?

It has varied. Goaltending. Supporting cast covers a bunch.

 

[Ozzie]

As Ozzie said - what's the reason then?

Marner isn't _the_ reason but he is part of the reason. And he is the one whose contract is up. And he's the one who is probably going to want something like $13 or $14 million. And he's part of the group that consistently underperforms in the playoffs.

So - if he shows another level this playoffs that's a big deal. If not...why keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.

Yes! Exactly! Half the salary cap devoted to 4 forwards who all play the same type of game. It hasn't worked, yet people are so terrified of the possibility of losing one of those players. So if Marner and the rest of the core group take that long awaited step this playoff season, great. Show us that you're worth that much cap space. If not, why not change it up.

Yes i agree with these two statements.

But it goes beyond the limitation on cap remaining to fill out the depth. It also relates to these Core4 of guys simply do NOT have it in them to drive 4 playoff rounds. Maybe two of the Core with 2 other key players with the drive to dig deep and get physical in the playoffs can do it..... but not this group of 4 together.

It's not even close. 5 wins in 9 seasons (in 2023) is the best result. That's so far away from a Cup that it's kind of funny that nothing has been done about it.

When the ice shrinks...when the other team plays rough and dirty....when guys are fighting for every inch of ice in the playoffs.... these guys shut down. It's like Pre Season Robertson v Regular Season Robertson. Except it's half the cap space and it's the playoffs and the guys wearing the letters.

A re-sign of Marner and Tavares because of fear of losing two amazing individual players will just put this losing alchemy on repeat. It's about as futile as watching Roadrunner and rooting for the Coyote to win.

 

[cw]

As Ozzie said - what's the reason then?

Marner isn't _the_ reason but he is part of the reason. And he is the one whose contract is up. And he's the one who is probably going to want something like $13 or $14 million. And he's part of the group that consistently underperforms in the playoffs.

So - if he shows another level this playoffs that's a big deal. If not...why keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.

Nearly ever player who got his name on the Cup played for a team in a season they didn't win a Cup.
Is that player the reason or part of the reason those teams didn't win a Cup? How is it so many of these players that were part of the reason they didn't win a Cup won one? How does that logic work?

Mats Sundin never won a Cup. Name a Cup winning team he wasn't good enough to be on. I can't think of any.
How about Joe Thornton? Jerome Iginla? Borje Salming? Darryl Sittler? Henrik Lundqvist? Marcel Dionne? Gilbert Perreault? Eric Lindros? Brad Park? Peter Šťastný? Pavel Bure? etc, etc, They're all Hall of Famers. It is an exponentially growing list with a 32 team league. Those players' teams repeated 'the same mistake' over and over - their entire Hall of Fame career.

It is a team sport.

For starters: what Cup winning starting goalie has played behind Marner during those first 8 seasons? Does crickets have a number?

 

[Joe S.]

How about Joe Thornton? Jerome Iginla? Borje Salming? Darryl Sittler? Henrik Lundqvist? Marcel Dionne? Gilbert Perreault? Eric Lindros? Brad Park? Peter Šťastný? Pavel Bure? etc, etc, They're all Hall of Famers. It is an exponentially growing list with a 32 team league. Those players' teams repeated 'the same mistake' over and over - their entire Hall of Fame career.

It is a team sport.

And then we have Nick Kypreos with his name etched on the Stanley cup.

 

[Ozzie]

Nearly ever player who got his name on the Cup played for a team in a season they didn't win a Cup.
Is that player the reason or part of the reason those teams didn't win a Cup? How is it so many of these players that were part of the reason they didn't win a Cup won one? How does that logic work?

Mats Sundin never won a Cup. Name a Cup winning team he wasn't good enough to be on. I can't think of any.
How about Joe Thornton? Jerome Iginla? Borje Salming? Darryl Sittler? Henrik Lundqvist? Marcel Dionne? Gilbert Perreault? Eric Lindros? Brad Park? Peter Šťastný? Pavel Bure? etc, etc, They're all Hall of Famers. It is an exponentially growing list with a 32 team league. Those players' teams repeated 'the same mistake' over and over - their entire Hall of Fame career.

It is a team sport.

For starters: what Cup winning starting goalie has played behind Marner during those first 8 seasons? Does crickets have a number?

I'm not saying the Core4 individually are not good enuff to win a Cup.... but together as an occupant of half the cap on a team....... they dont have what it takes. Add a Kadri and Bennett and subtract Tavares over the past 8 years and maybe.

Move Marner for a Tkahuck in 2021 then maybe.

But with any of those moves and Leafs are winning more than 5 games.

I tried to look it up on AI but my skills are not adept enuff to get it 100% right, but I think Tavares maybe the only player to Captain two different teams and never win more than 5 games. Eventually....after season after season.... you have to say it's a reflection of the player. Doesn't mean Tavares isn't awesome. Doesn't mean he isn't good in the playoffs. Doesnt mean he cant sign with Tampa this summer and win BEHIND Kucherov/Hedman or with Florida behind Barkov/Tkachuk. But it does mean he's not a good enuff leader to lead a playoff team to the Cup with the pieces he has had around him... actually he cant even lead a team to two series wins.

How many of those players you listed above have won more than 5 games?

 

[Chris]

For starters: what Cup winning starting goalie has played behind Marner during those first 8 seasons? Does crickets have a number?

Obviously there hasn't been one and there also hasn't been a true #1 stud defenseman. And a big part of the reason for those shortcomings is that a certain group of 4 players were taking up half the salary cap and not performing well enough in the playoffs to overcome those limitations.

Of course that's not the only reason - management decisions to "go for it" too early have played a big role as well.

Nearly ever player who got his name on the Cup played for a team in a season they didn't win a Cup.
Is that player the reason or part of the reason those teams didn't win a Cup? How is it so many of these players that were part of the reason they didn't win a Cup won one? How does that logic work?

I could ask the same thing about your "logic"

 

[cw]

I'm not saying the Core4 individually are not good enuff to win a Cup.... but together as an occupant of half the cap on a team....... they dont have what it takes. Add a Kadri and Bennett and subtract Tavares over the past 8 years and maybe.

Move Marner for a Tkahuck in 2021 then maybe.

But with any of those moves and Leafs are winning more than 5 games.

I tried to look it up on AI but my skills are not adept enuff to get it 100% right, but I think Tavares maybe the only player to Captain two different teams and never win more than 5 games. Eventually....after season after season.... you have to say it's a reflection of the player. Doesn't mean Tavares isn't awesome. Doesn't mean he isn't good in the playoffs. Doesnt mean he cant sign with Tampa this summer and win BEHIND Kucherov/Hedman or with Florida behind Barkov/Tkachuk. But it does mean he's not a good enuff leader to lead a playoff team to the Cup with the pieces he has had around him... actually he cant even lead a team to two series wins.

How many of those players you listed above have won more than 5 games?

I read and heard nonsense like that in the 1990s. His NHL city and sports media was campaigning on the front pages to run him out of town. In his first 11 years or so there, they got out of the first round twice. They alleged he couldn't lead his team to playoff success, etc etc. You might have heard of him: Steve Yzerman.

Fans of teams suffer quiet a bit to land a top 10 draft pick. And their 'reward' for that suffering can extend the pain like #8 overall Brandon Convery. You better be careful on the #4 overall picks you throw away. Ones that prove they are as able and talented two ways as Marner don't come along very often.

In the wake of giving up his captaincy, a position he treasured, all Tavares has done is lead by example on the ice turning in a 36 goal performance so far this season (11th in the league) - 7 more goals that the player who replaced him as captain. Only Ovechkin and Stamkos have scored more goals since he came into the league and they were blessed to play on better teams.

 

[Chris]

I read and heard nonsense like that in the 1990s. His NHL city and sports media was campaigning on the front pages to run him out of town. In his first 11 years or so there, they got out of the first round twice. They alleged he couldn't lead his team to playoff success, etc etc. You might have heard of him: Steve Yzerman.

Fans of teams suffer quiet a bit to land a top 10 draft pick. And their 'reward' for that suffering can extend the pain like #8 overall Brandon Convery. You better be careful on the #4 overall picks you throw away. Ones that prove they are as able and talented two ways as Marner don't come along very often.

In the wake of giving up his captaincy, a position he treasured, all Tavares has done is lead by example on the ice turning in a 36 goal performance so far this season (11th in the league) - 7 more goals that the player who replaced him as captain. Only Ovechkin and Stamkos have scored more goals since he came into the league and they were blessed to play on better teams.

Interesting comparison but you fail to note that in Yzerman's first 5 seasons, the Red Wings made it to the conference final twice. That's twice more than the Leafs have in the core's first 8 years. Also, if you compare the Detroit rosters from those early conference final teams to the team that finally broke through and won the cup - almost complete turnover other than Yzerman. It didn't hurt to have Lidstrom on the back end.

So yeah, maybe the complaints were similar - but we have one big difference. You're talking about ONE player on Detroit (Yzerman) whereas the Leafs have THREE (or 4 if you count Tavares). It would be like if the Leafs only had Marner, or only Matthews, or only Nylander. But they don't, they have 3 (or 4) and significant weaknesses in the rest of the roster because of it. So the idea of balancing out the roster by moving out one of them really shouldn't be something that people are so quick to label "nonsense".

 

[cw]

Interesting comparison but you fail to note that in Yzerman's first 5 seasons, the Red Wings made it to the conference final twice. That's twice more than the Leafs have in the core's first 8 years. Also, if you compare the Detroit rosters from those early conference final teams to the team that finally broke through and won the cup - almost complete turnover other than Yzerman. It didn't hurt to have Lidstrom on the back end.

So yeah, maybe the complaints were similar - but we have one big difference. You're talking about ONE player on Detroit (Yzerman) whereas the Leafs have THREE (or 4 if you count Tavares). It would be like if the Leafs only had Marner, or only Matthews, or only Nylander. But they don't, they have 3 (or 4) and significant weaknesses in the rest of the roster because of it. So the idea of balancing out the roster by moving out one of them really shouldn't be something that people are so quick to label "nonsense".

Yzerman was hurt in '88 - played 3 playoff games. So he led from the IR?

It is an example of a team with a great player working to eventually surround him with others to break through - rather than tossing him on the scrap heap because the media was howling stupid nonsense. The guy was a great player. He did not have the supporting cast. The core 4 have not had the supporting cast. 4 guys do not make a team.

Throwing one of the core 4 away is one path. But throwing away potentially the best or 2nd best of them for nothing is not necessarily the best path to improve the team.

If Matthews is permanently damaged goods, Marner might be their best player. And it is good for the Leafs to throw that away under those circumstances - because they want to make some cap space for a UFA market that will be significantly evaporated by July 1? I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here as is the media. That is not smart.

The discussion may be moot anyway because Marner may not hang around after how he's been treated. Which is a key reason for making the fuss - to dial down this ugly rhetoric: there is an argument to be made that he's being run off. His tone has changed. No more talk about 'I want to be a Leaf for life'. Be careful for what you wish for. A good percentage of the current UFA market is not going to be there on July 1. Matthews window is 3 years after this spring. They do not have a lot of time to fill that Marner void. If they mess around for another 3 years, why should Matthews hang around?

The cards should be held close to the team's vest. And the players being bashed in the media ought to have the team stand up for them if they want any hope of a future relationship. His team has not done a very good job of that. It could cost them and if it does, it will cost the Leafs fans. Marner leaving for nothing is a bad talent loss.

 

[Chris]

Yzerman was hurt in '88 - played 3 playoff games. So he led from the IR?

It is an example of a team with a great player working to eventually surround him with others to break through - rather than tossing him on the scrap heap because the media was howling stupid nonsense. The guy was a great player. He did not have the supporting cast. The core 4 have not had the supporting cast. 4 guys do not make a team.

Throwing one of the core 4 away is one path. But throwing away potentially the best or 2nd best of them for nothing is not necessarily the best path to improve the team.

If Matthews is permanently damaged goods, Marner might be their best player. And it is good for the Leafs to throw that away under those circumstances - because they want to make some cap space for a UFA market that will be significantly evaporated by July 1? I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here as is the media. That is not smart.

The discussion may be moot anyway because Marner may not hang around after how he's been treated. Which is a key reason for making the fuss - to dial down this ugly rhetoric: there is an argument to be made that he's being run off. His tone has changed. No more talk about 'I want to be a Leaf for life'. Be careful for what you wish for. A good percentage of the current UFA market is not going to be there on July 1. Matthews window is 3 years after this spring. They do not have a lot of time to fill that Marner void. If they mess around for another 3 years, why should Matthews hang around?

The cards should be held close to the team's vest. And the players being bashed in the media ought to have the team stand up for them if they want any hope of a future relationship. His team has not done a very good job of that. It could cost them and if it does, it will cost the Leafs fans. Marner leaving for nothing is a bad talent loss.

It's not a bad talent loss if they put together a better team and win the Cup...that's a trade I'd make any day. Sometimes you have to take a chance and roll the dice. Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't. But chances are if you just resign Marner to whatever he wants, you'll be sitting here after all of Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares have gone and the Leafs still won't have won a Cup since 1967 because the defense and supporting cast aren't good enough. So what's the big risk.

As for the rest of it - I do think Marner is the best player right now and it's possible Matthews has peaked. But he's still pretty good and as I noted before, Marner is the one whose contract is expiring. None of us really know what is going on behind the scenes, whether the Leafs are screwing with Marner or Marner is screwing with the Leafs. Maybe both. Maybe he's already decided he doesn't want to be here. In any case, I'm not worried about what people post on this forum, and really, none of us are saying that Marner should be gone at all costs (unless I missed someone). We're just saying the team needs to consider all options and that decision will be at least partly based on playoff performance this year.

"4 guys do not make a team" but when they take up half the salary cap, they pretty much do.

 

[cw]

It's not a bad talent loss if they put together a better team and win the Cup...that's a trade I'd make any day. Sometimes you have to take a chance and roll the dice. Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't. But chances are if you just resign Marner to whatever he wants, you'll be sitting here after all of Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares have gone and the Leafs still won't have won a Cup since 1967 because the defense and supporting cast aren't good enough. So what's the big risk.

But that was never a realistic option for Treliving.
Years ago, Marner gave the Leafs two UFA years in exchange for two NMC years.
That's the deal both sides agreed to. Marner has repeatedly said he is not going anywhere via trade.
No amount of rumours, Treliving musing or spewing in the media changes that.
And here we are.

The only question now (really the same question of the past two years if anyone listened to Marner's camp) is can the Leafs improve their team by spending Marner's money elsewhere on the UFA market (because they do not have much to trade ..). Looking right now, the best case might be a maybe but by the time July 1 rolls around a bunch of players will have signed so it is pretty questionable.

A bunch of people foolishly look at it with "if I can get 2 players that collectively put up Marner's points for Marner's money, we're good!" but that misses that they used two roster spots to do it and where's the accounting of Marner's exceptional defensive game in that equation? It is a trickier assessment than merely the points.

I respect him as a player but I have zero emotional attachment to Marner. If they could flip him to make the team better, I'm there in a heartbeat. I too want the Leafs to win a Cup. But he is a very good player. They needed to be very careful here. Smart move is to keep your options open. The team should have managed the media better.

They have some kind of a shot this spring. Not the greatest but far from the worst. If Lorentz becomes John Druce and one of the goalies stands on their head, who knows?

 

[Chris]

Probably the best shot they've had. They _should_ finish first which at least means home ice. They have a really good goaltender in Stolarz and a really good backup. Defense is tougher than ever before. Knies is blossoming into an elite power forward. My concerns are Matthews (obviously) and the ability of the defense to handle the pressure of strong forechecking over the course of a 7 game series. If Lorentz can be Nick Paul from the playoffs a few years ago that would be a huge help.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Probably the best shot they've had. They _should_ finish first which at least means home ice. They have a really good goaltender in Stolarz and a really good backup. Defense is tougher than ever before. Knies is blossoming into an elite power forward. My concerns are Matthews (obviously) and the ability of the defense to handle the pressure of strong forechecking over the course of a 7 game series. If Lorentz can be Nick Paul from the playoffs a few years ago that would be a huge help.

Also;

Tavares is on a mission.

Marner is playing for a $500 million dollar contract.

Willy is the perfect version of himself.

Matthews with the ultimate rope-a-dope will score 70 goals in the playoffs.