Phil Kessel and trade value

[freer]

Streaky wouldn't be the word I'd use but one-dimensional is.

Agreed, and I think that is the reason he's accused of being "streaky". If he isn't given space, or given the puck at speed, he's pretty ineffective outside of the PP, and really doesn't have another approach to the game. It's not like he's going to muck around in the corners, fight through checks, or god forbid, actually throw a hit. So some games he's given more liberties than others, and it shows up in the scoresheet. If the leafs can generate more offence from the other lines, it should actually benefit Kessel in terms of reduced defensive focus.

I think what it boils down to for me is that when he doesn't score he actually has a negative impact on the team because he doesn't defend all that well.  When he is scoring, his line isn't in the d-zone all that much, so we don't notice the impact all that much.  However, when he can't break out of the zone, that line gets hemmed in their own end, and all sorts of calamity ensues.

I have to say, I have really been impressed with how well Kessel hustles to cover defencemen and get back into the play in his own end. He's really done a great job in that area the last few years. Granted breaking out of the defensive zone is a huge problem with that line, but one has to wonder how much of the problem lies with the centre. Personally I think it's Bozak who's exacerbating that line's defensive struggles.

Are you kidding. the guy plays Pk, had short handed goals last season and is not sent to the penalty box when the bench gets a penalty. Enough off this Bozak is crap. He is what they have, get over it.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Are you kidding. the guy plays Pk, had short handed goals last season and is not sent to the penalty box when the bench gets a penalty. Enough off this Bozak is crap. He is what they have, get over it.

He pretty much only kills penalties because of his faceoff abilities. Usually he wins it and gets the heck off. I'm not sure that says much about his defensive abilities.

 

[freer]

Are you kidding. the guy plays Pk, had short handed goals last season and is not sent to the penalty box when the bench gets a penalty. Enough off this Bozak is crap. He is what they have, get over it.

He pretty much only kills penalties because of his faceoff abilities. Usually he wins it and gets the heck off. I'm not sure that says much about his defensive abilities.

IMO you do put a defensive liable player on to win defensive face off while short handed.

 

[bustaheims]

He pretty much only kills penalties because of his faceoff abilities. Usually he wins it and gets the heck off. I'm not sure that says much about his defensive abilities.

That his coach doesn't trust them enough to rely on him as a primary PK guy, but just enough to feel like he's not going to be a detriment out there if he loses the face-off? So, basically, that he's an adequate defensive player, I guess. I don't like the idea of putting him up against the other team's best - I think he's severely outmatched there - but, against 2nd lines, I think he's effective enough.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

IMO you do put a defensive liable player on to win defensive face off while short handed.

On a team like the Leafs that struggles on the draw? Yeah, I'd be more likely to put him out there and hope for the best.

 

[Kin]

I have to say, I have really been impressed with how well Kessel hustles to cover defencemen and get back into the play in his own end.

I think that's true to an extent but I think the contribution there is only by virtue of him just being around someone and "covering" them in the loosest sense of the word. If it comes to actually making a play or winning a battle I don't think he adds much.

 

[rdowdall]

Streaky wouldn't be the word I'd use but one-dimensional is.

Agreed, and I think that is the reason he's accused of being "streaky". If he isn't given space, or given the puck at speed, he's pretty ineffective outside of the PP, and really doesn't have another approach to the game. It's not like he's going to muck around in the corners, fight through checks, or god forbid, actually throw a hit. So some games he's given more liberties than others, and it shows up in the scoresheet. If the leafs can generate more offence from the other lines, it should actually benefit Kessel in terms of reduced defensive focus.

I think what it boils down to for me is that when he doesn't score he actually has a negative impact on the team because he doesn't defend all that well.  When he is scoring, his line isn't in the d-zone all that much, so we don't notice the impact all that much.  However, when he can't break out of the zone, that line gets hemmed in their own end, and all sorts of calamity ensues.

I have to say, I have really been impressed with how well Kessel hustles to cover defencemen and get back into the play in his own end. He's really done a great job in that area the last few years. Granted breaking out of the defensive zone is a huge problem with that line, but one has to wonder how much of the problem lies with the centre. Personally I think it's Bozak who's exacerbating that line's defensive struggles.

I'd have to pay more attention, but I think sometimes Bozak looks bad because he is trying to cover for Kessel.  Now, he probably shouldn't cover for Kessel, but then a goal is probably going to happen if he doesn't.

I will say that it appears like Kessel is trying to get back, but I agree with Nik that once he gets there, he isn't largely effective.

 

[losveratos]

I have to say, I have really been impressed with how well Kessel hustles to cover defencemen and get back into the play in his own end.

I think that's true to an extent but I think the contribution there is only by virtue of him just being around someone and "covering" them in the loosest sense of the word. If it comes to actually making a play or winning a battle I don't think he adds much.

Or he does something like this

[youtube]dI-6Zq383mo[/youtube]

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'd have to pay more attention, but I think sometimes Bozak looks bad because he is trying to cover for Kessel.  Now, he probably shouldn't cover for Kessel, but then a goal is probably going to happen if he doesn't.

I will say that it appears like Kessel is trying to get back, but I agree with Nik that once he gets there, he isn't largely effective.

If he's trying to cover for Kessel (and I don't think that's happening) then he's a bad C.  C has arguably the most responsibility at both ends of the ice and if he's leaving that to cover for a winger then that's ridiculous. 

But that's not what I see happening so...

 

[LuncheonMeat]

I have to say, I have really been impressed with how well Kessel hustles to cover defencemen and get back into the play in his own end.

I think that's true to an extent but I think the contribution there is only by virtue of him just being around someone and "covering" them in the loosest sense of the word. If it comes to actually making a play or winning a battle I don't think he adds much.

This is what I see, too.  And it makes me wonder what's going on in Shanahan's head when he watches the team play.  I think the next off-season has the potential to be a pretty interesting one.  I like Kessel, and do think he has game-breaking skills, but I wonder how his effort some nights sits with Shanahan.  Does it eat at him enough that after a full season he breaks up the core?  This sort of assumes that the Leafs suck and miss the playoffs.

 

[rdowdall]

I'd have to pay more attention, but I think sometimes Bozak looks bad because he is trying to cover for Kessel.  Now, he probably shouldn't cover for Kessel, but then a goal is probably going to happen if he doesn't.

I will say that it appears like Kessel is trying to get back, but I agree with Nik that once he gets there, he isn't largely effective.

If he's trying to cover for Kessel (and I don't think that's happening) then he's a bad C.  C has arguably the most responsibility at both ends of the ice and if he's leaving that to cover for a winger then that's ridiculous. 

But that's not what I see happening so...

Well if he comes out to block a shot from the point, doesn't get there in time, and the shot goes in, and the point is supposed to be covered by the winger, whose fault is it?  Is he just supposed to allow the d-man a clear path to the net if the winger blew coverage?  Kind of like the Leddy goal last night.

 

[sickbeast]

The Leafs would be a completely different team right now had they not made the Kessel trade or the Raycroft/Rask trade.  Dougie Hamilton proved that point last night.  Seguin is every bit as good as Kessel and is probably a better two way player.

 

[brothert]

The Leafs would be a completely different team right now had they not made the Kessel trade or the Raycroft/Rask trade.  Dougie Hamilton proved that point last night.  Seguin is every bit as good as Kessel and is probably a better two way player.

I feel confident in saying that the leafs would have found a way to not draft either of those guys. The rask for Raycroft thing was pretty bad though. I wish management would resist trying for big name players all the time or the quick fix. I don't want Staal here at all. Kurvers , Nolan, Raycroft, Phaneuf, Kessel, Clarkson are all players that were all brought in under buy high scenarios that I felt didn't work out.

 

[freer]

You could of say would of could of should of!

The leafs would of finished just out of the position to draft either one of those kids. IMO the NHL is not going to let the LEAF'S or rich team win the draft. Just saying

 

[Champ Kind]

The Leafs would be a completely different team right now had they not made the Kessel trade or the Raycroft/Rask trade.  Dougie Hamilton proved that point last night.  Seguin is every bit as good as Kessel and is probably a better two way player.

I feel confident in saying that the leafs would have found a way to not draft either of those guys. The rask for Raycroft thing was pretty bad though. I wish management would resist trying for big name players all the time or the quick fix. I don't want Staal here at all. Kurvers , Nolan, Raycroft, Phaneuf, Kessel, Clarkson are all players that were all brought in under buy high scenarios that I felt didn't work out.

I get your point but you can't put Phaneuf in that group.  I'd also add that this sort of this is not specific to the Leafs alone.  We have the benefit of hindsight in assessing these deals.  Don't you think St. Louis or Minnesota are saying the same thing about some of their deadline deals last season? 

 

[brothert]

The Leafs would be a completely different team right now had they not made the Kessel trade or the Raycroft/Rask trade.  Dougie Hamilton proved that point last night.  Seguin is every bit as good as Kessel and is probably a better two way player.

I feel confident in saying that the leafs would have found a way to not draft either of those guys. The rask for Raycroft thing was pretty bad though. I wish management would resist trying for big name players all the time or the quick fix. I don't want Staal here at all. Kurvers , Nolan, Raycroft, Phaneuf, Kessel, Clarkson are all players that were all brought in under buy high scenarios that I felt didn't work out.

I get your point but you can't put Phaneuf in that group.  I'd also add that this sort of this is not specific to the Leafs alone.  We have the benefit of hindsight in assessing these deals.  Don't you think St. Louis or Minnesota are saying the same thing about some of their deadline deals last season?

Okay maybe not Phaneuf but I wouldn't have resigned him at those numbers. I am not advocating not making a reach when you think it's close (nolan's trade was probably in that category's). But what I'm frustrated with is that this is the franchises "signature move" over the past 30 years. Every 2 years they try to make a big splash. Try playing the game slow and responsible. Stop handing out money. Do your homework and change slowly. Heck the tank nation of 3yrs ago approach would have the same points by now with cap space and some young stars to indentify with. Oh add the stempniak trade to the list. I still don't know who that guy is. And I didn't think steen would do as well as he did I thought he would be a 2/3 line centre for the leafs for a long time. Its easy to support a young team and watch them struggle and grow. It's tough to watch a capped out team knowing that we still have to go through a rebuild and we are going to get pennies on the dollar for dumping these struggling players.

 

[skrackle]

The Leafs would be a completely different team right now had they not made the Kessel trade or the Raycroft/Rask trade.  Dougie Hamilton proved that point last night.  Seguin is every bit as good as Kessel and is probably a better two way player.

I feel confident in saying that the leafs would have found a way to not draft either of those guys. The rask for Raycroft thing was pretty bad though. I wish management would resist trying for big name players all the time or the quick fix. I don't want Staal here at all. Kurvers , Nolan, Raycroft, Phaneuf, Kessel, Clarkson are all players that were all brought in under buy high scenarios that I felt didn't work out.

I get your point but you can't put Phaneuf in that group.  I'd also add that this sort of this is not specific to the Leafs alone.  We have the benefit of hindsight in assessing these deals.  Don't you think St. Louis or Minnesota are saying the same thing about some of their deadline deals last season?

At least St. Louis and Minnesota made the playoffs, though. The Blues look like they could be a contender with the right tweaks, so I can see how they would be open to deadline deals. So happens it didn't work out, but I can't fault them for gambling.

With the Leafs, to quote Gertrude Stein, "There's no there, there". There are some talented individual players, but no leadership and not a whole lot to build on. The team as it's constructed is not a winner, nor will it be.

What it is, is a big mess and I hope it isn't Nonis that's left to try and fix it.

 

[Britishbulldog]

So would you trade Kessel for Ovechkin straight up?

 

[2badknees]

So would you trade Kessel for Ovechkin straight up?

Personally no, but the stats don't back me up.

 

[Britishbulldog]

So would you trade Kessel for Ovechkin straight up?

Personally no, but the stats don't back me up.

I love numbers....

Here is a side by side comparison.

1985 Ovechkin 6'2" 220 RH  (+46 career) $9.538 MIL unitl 2021        YEAR 14/15 13/14 12/13 11/12 10/11 09/10 08/09 07/08 06/07 05/06   GP 9 78 48 78 79 72 79 82 82 81     G 5 51 32 38 32 50 56 65 46 52     A 1 28 24 27 53 59 54 47 46 54   PTS 6 79 56 65 85 109 110 112 92 106   HITS 38 204 120 215 241 185 243 - - - 1987 Kessel 5-11 202 RH (-43 career) $8.0 MIL until 2022 YEAR 14/15 13/14 12/13 11/12 10/11 09/10 08/09 07/08 06/07   GP 9 82 48 82 82 70 70 82 70   G 5 37 20 37 32 30 36 19 11   A 5 43 32 45 32 25 24 18 18   PTS 10 80 52 82 64 55 60 37 29   HITS 2 25 16 12 11 13 6 - -