Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
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I don't really think the past two 1st round exits will factor into anything. The "Tavares Era" Leafs will probably get at least 3 shots at it before serious change is considered, with serious change being one or a combination of the following: coach change, GM change, trade of a core player
Babcock is not going anywhere. I would be shocked if he's not here for his full 8 year contract.
That being said, he needs to do something to fix the power play. The Leafs need some kind of coaching wizardry because it appears that the opposing teams have decrypted and adapted to their strategy. I'm sure Babcock can do it.
That being said, he needs to do something to fix the power play. The Leafs need some kind of coaching wizardry because it appears that the opposing teams have decrypted and adapted to their strategy. I'm sure Babcock can do it.
Zee
Active member
sickbeast said:
He wouldn't be here on his full 8 year contract at all costs. What if the Leafs get bounced in round 1 for 5-6 years in a row? Let Babcock use the final 2-3 years to figure it out? What if they miss the playoffs in the next few seasons? Let him ride out the contract for the full 8? You never know what could happen
My opinion for what it's worth is that playoff performance is more dictated by the roster than it is by the coach. Old school Don Cherry type of teams often fare better. Not always. I just find that Boston has shut us down a bunch of times and we need more grit in order to face them. That's not Babcock's fault at all. And it's kind of impossible for the Leafs to counter at this point. They are built on speed and skill. Lots of young guys. Guys tend to bulk up as they get older. We'll see what happens but I really don't think we can handle Boston in the playoffs (yet). They Leafs *could* beat them, but I personally fear them as a fan. And Tampa just seems so out of this world good this season that I feel that we could easily lose to them also. I wouldn't fault Babcock at all if we lost to either of those teams. A team like Montreal beating us might make me feel differently. But I'm a big fan of Babcock and I think he's got at least another 2-3 seasons of "leash" left in him. Dubas is not going to fire him IMO.Zee said:
Zee
Active member
sickbeast said:
I disagree on them not being able to handle Boston. They came out in games 1 and 2 like a deer in the headlines and were totally not prepared to play. Then Kadri gets the suspension which hurt the Leafs chances. After the first 2 games, Leafs actually won 3 of 5 games and were leading in game 7 in the 3rd period, so they're more than capable of beating the Bruins if they're on top of their game. They have to be prepared from the start of game 1, their powerplay has to be eons better than it is right now, and the goaltending has to be solid.
herman said:
Right now I am interested in simply winning a round. That has to happen before they can ever win a cup, and I am not saying that simply to be a smart ass. This team has loads of talent, but there is still a reasonable chance that they cannot make it out of the first round. If that happens for the 3rd year in a row, then yes, they may remain status quo and assume that with another year of progressing with the same players is all that it will take.... but I also think it would be fair to at least be suspicious of another problem if this happens again this year.
As the GM, you can go one of two ways, in that case. You can believe that the team is not built well for the playoffs and look to make changes, or you can believe that the team is under-performing to what they are capable of and then look outside the players.
mr grieves
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IF the relationship between the progressive, experimental GM and his less progressive, more stubborn coach deteriorates, I can see Dubas, at some point, doing what he did in the Soo, finding a coach with buy-in. Not this year, of course, but maybe next.
Which crossed my mind when I saw this:
https://twitter.com/rahef_issa/status/1098335839556329472
The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
Which crossed my mind when I saw this:
https://twitter.com/rahef_issa/status/1098335839556329472
The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
Zee
Active member
I mean, Dubas has talked about inefficiencies and maximizing the talent and players you have. It was pretty obviously a Dubas move to have Sparks and Holl on the roster, and look how Babcock has handled Holl. Didn't even bother to try and find out if he could play, and now that he's sat out the entire season you can't play him at all.
Then, Dubas gets Muzzin to try and get a better top pairing, and take minutes away from Hainsey, so Babcock tries it out for 4-5 games and then goes back to Rielly-Hainsey and playing Hainsey huge minutes.
So I think there's a disconnect between what Dubas sees as an optimal lineup/strategy and what Babcock sees. How long does a GM put up with a coach who goes against everything he's trying to accomplish? If Babcock ultimately wins than Dubas can live with it. If the Leafs get trounced in the first round again, and you still have guys like Hainsey and to a lesser extent Marleau playing out of their best roles, who do you blame?
Then, Dubas gets Muzzin to try and get a better top pairing, and take minutes away from Hainsey, so Babcock tries it out for 4-5 games and then goes back to Rielly-Hainsey and playing Hainsey huge minutes.
So I think there's a disconnect between what Dubas sees as an optimal lineup/strategy and what Babcock sees. How long does a GM put up with a coach who goes against everything he's trying to accomplish? If Babcock ultimately wins than Dubas can live with it. If the Leafs get trounced in the first round again, and you still have guys like Hainsey and to a lesser extent Marleau playing out of their best roles, who do you blame?
mr grieves said:
The only explanation is that Babs is using this time to get Muzzin adjusted to the team/see where he fits best. If he isn't clearly getting top 2/3 ice-time later in March and through the playoffs then yeah I'd seriously question what exactly is going on there.
Zee
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:
It's not just that though. Why does he still have Marleau playing with Matthews despite all the evidence that Marleau just isn't working there and actually drives the line results down?
Why does he not play Matthews more minutes in games despite the fact Matthews is the premier scoring center in the league? There's a lot of whys with Babcock's decisions and never really any good answers from him. As a GM, if your coach isn't on the same page with you, and constantly does things that are counter productive to how you view the team's roster and ability you're going to have to make a tough decision at some point. Like I said, if it all works out and Babcock gets them to a long playoff run this season then he can proven right in his decisions, if not...
Zee said:
Well I was specifically commenting on a post about Muzzin so it was just that. But yes, Marleau's usage is also a (separate) issue. One that I don't have an explanation for.
A lot of statistical facts about Babcock's deployment of players is troublesome. This is a shocking statistic. Do you think Dubas had this deployment in mind when he acquired Muzzin? Babcock really needs to get out of the teams way and let his best play. I am starting to seriously question his ability. Stack three lines, play the best the most and don't chase matchups when you're so damn deep. If I was Dubas maybe I force the issue by trading one of Brown or Hyman or Gauthier or Hainsey. Who are you going to play now?mr grieves said:
Zee
Active member
cabber24 said:
I mean, ultimately the coach has to answer to the GM. It's not even a matter of Dubas having to take Babcock's "toys" away. What does it say about a coach if you talk to him behind the scenes, give him your idea and vision about how the team should play, and he just ignores everything you've told him and does it his way? I'm sure Dubas and Babcock have daily conversations about the state of the team, the deployment of players etc. If Babcock keeps insisting he's the coach and his way will work, then he's responsible if it doesn't work. People keep thinking Babcock is untouchable because he has 4 years left on his contract, I don't buy that for one minute. If Dubas feels a change is needed he'll make that call, and then he's the one on the hot seat going forward. Both Dubas and Babcock are strong in their convictions, but one of them is the boss.
Here's my prediction for the playoffs:
Starting Lineup
Marleau Matthew Kappi
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Nylander
Johnsson and who cares, ain't playing
Roll three lines, Brown and Hyman lead all forwards in ice time, lose 2 of 3 games.
Lines "reshuffled" back to the beginning of time lines.
Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Kappi
Johnsson who cares, ain't playing
Win one, lose one. Still rolling 3 evenly.
Lines shuffled again (to late bud)
Kappi Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Maleau
Brown Who cares, ain't playing
Play the first two lines a lot win one and lose one, series lost. Bab's defaults to his best lineup too late because he's an idiot.
Starting Lineup
Marleau Matthew Kappi
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Nylander
Johnsson and who cares, ain't playing
Roll three lines, Brown and Hyman lead all forwards in ice time, lose 2 of 3 games.
Lines "reshuffled" back to the beginning of time lines.
Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Kappi
Johnsson who cares, ain't playing
Win one, lose one. Still rolling 3 evenly.
Lines shuffled again (to late bud)
Kappi Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Maleau
Brown Who cares, ain't playing
Play the first two lines a lot win one and lose one, series lost. Bab's defaults to his best lineup too late because he's an idiot.