Preseason: Wings @ Leafs - Oct. 7th, 7:00pm - SN360, TSN 1050

[TBLeafer]

Cost of trading for expiring contracts of middling/replacement NHLers to clear long term signed unwanted players that weren't gonna work with the newly forming core.

Even if you want to make the argument that none of those contracts could be moved in off-season(or Holland just bailed on), those are reasons for the cap hits on the books, not for those players making the NHL team.

They aren't on the books long. Detroit has done alright 'overdeveloping' a player or two because a vet was still hanging around.

Waiting another season to promote a Leipsic or even a Brown won't be earth shattering.

 

[Kin]

They aren't on the books long. Detroit has done alright 'overdeveloping' a player or two because a vet was still hanging around.

Detroit actually doesn't have that great a record of developing young players post-cap.

Waiting another season to promote a Leipsic or even a Brown won't be earth shattering.

There'd be nothing earth shattering about putting fringe NHL'ers in the AHL either.

 

[TBLeafer]

They aren't on the books long. Detroit has done alright 'overdeveloping' a player or two because a vet was still hanging around.

Detroit actually doesn't have that great a record of developing young players post-cap.

Waiting another season to promote a Leipsic or even a Brown won't be earth shattering.

There'd be nothing earth shattering about putting fringe NHL'ers in the AHL either.

Well, that game was a snore fest.

Culture change. I'd say our AHL team is built quite differently than just three seasons ago. It wasn't used to actually develop our prospect pool, like it is today.

It truly is a development league for Leafs rookies now.

 

[Kin]

Culture change. I'd say our AHL team is built quite differently than just three seasons ago. It wasn't used to actually develop our prospect pool, like it is today.

It truly is a development league for Leafs rookies now.

That's not really an answer. The Marlies did, will and do have older players.

 

[TBLeafer]

Culture change. I'd say our AHL team is built quite differently than just three seasons ago. It wasn't used to actually develop our prospect pool, like it is today.

It truly is a development league for Leafs rookies now.

That's not really an answer. The Marlies did, will and do have older players.

Actually, its just not an answer you can deny.

 

[Kin]

Actually, its just not an answer you can deny.

Sure I can. The Marlies had multiple guys last year who weren't prospects. Guys who were 27 and 28 years old. That's an indisputable fact. There's absolutely nothing different about putting someone like Holland or Greening in the AHL than there would be in having guys like Arcobello or Clune there last year.

This isn't really a matter of opinion. If you're saying putting marginal NHLers in the AHL is a big deal or that it's not something the Leafs have done with the Marlies recently, you're just wrong.

 

[TBLeafer]

Actually, its just not an answer you can deny.

Sure I can. The Marlies had multiple guys last year who weren't prospects. Guys who were 27 and 28 years old. That's an indisputable fact. There's absolutely nothing different about putting someone like Holland or Greening in the AHL than there would be in having guys like Arcobello or Clune there last year.

This isn't really a matter of opinion. If you're saying putting marginal NHLers in the AHL is a big deal or that it's not something the Leafs have done with the Marlies recently, you're just wrong.

So then how were the Marlies comprised 'primarily' compared to pre-Shanny teams.  You have the 'odd vet' vs. the 'odd prospect' which adds credence to my original point of culture change toward internal draft and develop.

That right now is undeniable.

 

[Kin]

So then how were the Marlies comprised 'primarily' compared to pre-Shanny teams.  You have the 'odd vet' vs. the 'odd prospect' which adds credence to my original point of culture change toward internal draft and develop.

If you have a point to make about the average age or number of prospects vs. non-prospects of the Marlies under Shanahan vs. the Marlies under Burke or Nonis you're free to do your own research and actually have the weight of fact behind your argument.

As is, the Marlies will continue to have guys on the roster who aren't prospects so there's nothing contradicting anything I've said. Greening, Holland, Laich and so on, none of these guys have to be on the NHL roster and the choice to keep them there is a fair one to criticize.

 

[TBLeafer]

So then how were the Marlies comprised 'primarily' compared to pre-Shanny teams.  You have the 'odd vet' vs. the 'odd prospect' which adds credence to my original point of culture change toward internal draft and develop.

If you have a point to make about the average age or number of prospects vs. non-prospects of the Marlies under Shanahan vs. the Marlies under Burke or Nonis you're free to do your own research and actually have the weight of fact behind your argument.

As is, the Marlies will continue to have guys on the roster who aren't prospects so there's nothing contradicting anything I've said. Greening, Holland, Laich and so on, none of these guys have to be on the NHL roster and the choice to keep them there is a fair one to criticize.

Sure.  One can always find a way to criticize if that's ever all one looks for.

 

[Kin]

Oh how I long for the days when the Leafs made me go looking.

 

[TBLeafer]

You mean the pre-Ballard era?  Before my time.

We are "Draft Schmaft" no longer.  Baby steps.  This season a very big baby step with Matthews leading the holy trinity + Zaitsev. Leipsic is waiver exempt.  He can wait, as can Brown if Shannyco deems it best for long term growth and stability.

And it pains me to say that, because I so badly want to see Brown take that next step up with the big squad.

 

[Kin]

Hey, if you want to fall all over yourself giving them credit for clearing the lowest of possible bars, knock yourself out. I'm perfectly capable of looking at what anyone does and deciding for myself what strikes me as smart and what doesn't.

I think roster spots for some of the marginal guys on the roster are largely wasted vs. giving guys who are now in their 4th year post-draft a legitimate shot at making the club and there's no reason why the current braintrust couldn't choose to do that. You're certainly free to counter that with EVERYTHING SHANNY AND LOUIE AND DUBEY AND MIKEY DOES IS PERFECT BECUZ THEY'RE PERFECT BECUZ THEY'RE BETTER THAN JFJ but I'm under no obligation to confuse that with an informed argument.

 

[TBLeafer]

Well I happen to think that group happens to have informed, internal discussions on the daily. This is just year 2 of that complete management group being a unit.  I've always been one to harshly criticize Leafs management and coaching ever since the cap era came into being.

Right now, I am watching a Leafs rebuild unlike any other I have seen to date.  Growing up as a Leafs fan and a hockey player/coach, its actually quite natural for me to question every decision made by Leafs management.

I'm just going to reserve that judgement this time until this effort looks in danger of being unsuccessful.  Right now, that is not the case.

You're just sitting there waiting for the bubble to burst again so you can pounce with "I told you so" at the first opportunity.

 

[Kin]

Well I happen to think that group happens to have informed, internal discussions on the daily.

Sure. They're still fully capable of being wrong and they almost certainly will be wrong on some things. No management team is perfect.

I'm just going to reserve that judgement this time until this effort looks in danger of being unsuccessful.

Why? There's no virtue in not saying what you think on a discussion forum centered on the team. If I see something I think is a bad decision, I'll say so. Likewise with good decisions. If I'm wrong about something I say "Oh well, I was wrong". If I'm right, I say "Oh well, I'm right". There's no real satisfaction in that. I was "right" about the trade for Kessel but it doesn't make me happy about it. I'm not keeping track of my batting average.

Either way, if you want to disagree substantively, fine. If you want to say you think the team is better served having almost half of the forward spots taken by marginal, non-prospect NHLers, great. But pretending that the Leafs can't send some of these guys to the AHL or that it'd be a huge departure if they did is just nonsense that doesn't seem based on anything outside of some weird desire to defend what this team is doing on blind faith.

 

[TBLeafer]

Well I happen to think that group happens to have informed, internal discussions on the daily.

Sure. They're still fully capable of being wrong and they almost certainly will be wrong on some things. No management team is perfect.

I'm just going to reserve that judgement this time until this effort looks in danger of being unsuccessful.

Why? There's no virtue in not saying what you think on a discussion forum centered on the team. If I see something I think is a bad decision, I'll say so. Likewise with good decisions. If I'm wrong about something I say "Oh well, I was wrong". If I'm right, I say "Oh well, I'm right". There's no real satisfaction in that. I was "right" about the trade for Kessel but it doesn't make me happy about it. I'm not keeping track of my batting average.

Either way, if you want to disagree substantively, fine. If you want to say you think the team is better served having almost half of the forward spots taken by marginal, non-prospect NHLers, great. But pretending that the Leafs can't send some of these guys to the AHL or that it'd be a huge departure if they did is just nonsense that doesn't seem based on anything outside of some weird desire to defend what this team is doing on blind faith.

Okay, to me it makes no sense to play an all U-27 team with the exception of Bozak.  You need vets to stabilize and be a calming presence for haughty rookies.  Having too much NHL ready rookie prospect talent is a great problem to have but it doesn't mean it immediately makes an NHL TEAM better if all the vets, even marginal ones get bumped at once.

The kids are fine to get a little more developed, a little older, a little more stable and become a little more of a man.  We have one more season where we have those marginal NHL'ers that Babs can pump/flip at the deadline and to get a decent return on them, they are better served getting NHL minutes, not AHL minutes.

You need to realize that after this season, all we will have is our youth.  Nobody over 30 signed to any kind of term.  The ones we currently have on expiring or one year deals have earned the right to still be NHLers, unless their name is Rich Clune.

 

[Redleaf]

I couldn't agree more. Well said!

 

[Kin]

Okay, to me it makes no sense to play an all U-27 team with the exception of Bozak.

A complete and total strawman. Not only am I not saying that each and every one of these guys shouldn't be on the roster, even if I were it wouldn't create that situation. Hunwick is 31. Polak is 30. JVR is 27. Martin, who I didn't include in the list of guys who shouldn't be on the team, is 27.

The idea that you need these 5 players in addition to the guys I just mentioned for veteran presense doesn't even begin to hold up. 10 of 21 roster spots(not including Lupul) are guys who are 27 years old or older. You can pare that down by a couple to have competition for spots from some of the young kids that deserve a shot.

We saw at last year's deadline that you can't just pile up picks with veterans having ok years. Far more valuable to the Leafs going forward would be having some talented but ultimately expendable good young players that could be key pieces in deals for good players. The Leafs aren't developing those kinds of players right now because they're obsessed with having an abundance of fringe grinders in the lineup.

 

[herman]

This is the perfect year to have more youth developing on the parent club with limited expectations. I would try to make room for 3 more on top of Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Carrick, Corrado. Hyman, Soshnikov, and Brown. Bozak, Komarov, Holland bolstering the bottom 6.

 

[TBLeafer]

A complete and total strawman. Not only am I not saying that each and every one of these guys shouldn't be on the roster, even if I were it wouldn't create that situation. Hunwick is 31. Polak is 30. JVR is 27. Martin, who I didn't include in the list of guys who shouldn't be on the team, is 27.

The idea that you need these 5 players in addition to the guys I just mentioned for veteran presense doesn't even begin to hold up. 10 of 21 roster spots(not including Lupul) are guys who are 27 years old or older. You can pare that down by a couple to have competition for spots from some of the young kids that deserve a shot.

We saw at last year's deadline that you can't just pile up picks with veterans having ok years. Far more valuable to the Leafs going forward would be having some talented but ultimately expendable good young players that could be key pieces in deals for good players. The Leafs aren't developing those kinds of players right now because they're obsessed with having an abundance of fringe grinders in the lineup.

Strawman?  Not even close.  Slight exaggeration?  Absolutely, in order to hammer home the point the followed, which you completely left alone.

Too much of a youth movement of rookies all at the same time, never bodes well.  You need to stagger at least a little.  Tanking because Babs has too much youth to develop an NHL game with this season is not the answer.

Nylander
Marner
Matthews
Hyman
Zaitsev
Carrick and possibly Brown.

That is more than enough youth infusion this season.

 

[Kin]

Strawman?  Not even close.  Slight exaggeration?  Absolutely, in order to hammer home the point the followed, which you completely left alone.

Pro-tip, next time you might want to address the specifics of what someone is saying rather than construct a fantasy you're arguing against. I "ignored" the point that followed because it's entirely irrelevant. Nobody is arguing for a veteran-free lineup. Presenting the difference between 10 veterans and 8 veterans or 6 veterans as a drastic all or nothing scenario is the definition of a strawman. It's one of the only tricks in your bag and it's as transparent as it is unimpressive.

Too much of a youth movement of rookies all at the same time, never bodes well.  You need to stagger at least a little.

This is based on what? What examples do you have that outline how many rookies is too many vs. just right? Or are you just pulling that out of the air? In what way would 6 rookies constitute perfection but 8 way too much?

You're just making crap up and pretending it has the weight of evidence behind it.