bustaheims
Active member
2badknees said:
The top 6 isn't the problem. It's the non-existent depth scoring that is the real issue when it comes to the offence.
Reality check.....
- Thread starter nutman
- Start date
The top 6 isn't the problem. It's the non-existent depth scoring that is the real issue when it comes to the offence.
Kin
New member
losveratos said:
Except that ignores that 1st lines should be compared to other 1st lines if you're actually trying to get a handle on how strong they are and what position they put the Leafs in when they're playing another team.
The Leafs' top scorer is 17th in the league although with a bit of a GP advantage over most of the guys around him. The Leafs #2 scorer is ranked 49th right now, or right around that same 20th-30th among the second group of 30.
So it's pretty hard to argue that the Leafs first line, when compared to other teams first lines, is a strength of the club. It may not be as glaring a weakness as the scoring from the blue line or the depth scoring but you still need to find an appropriate curve here. Other teams first lines do have Crosby and Kunitz or Ovechkin and Backstrom or Toews and Kane and that's the context these guys need to be judged on. If the Leafs have the 17th or 20th or whatever best first line it's not the same thing as saying they "don't have a first line" but it's also not the same thing as saying that they should be happy with the production they're getting from that group.
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losveratos
Guest
Nik the Trik said:
Ok... let's put it a different way. As far as I see it in the NHL stats page, only 7 teams have a player (or two) with more points than Kessel.
Maybe some people aren't happy with top 8 production. But if we had appropriate secondary scoring, I think top 8 is good enough for me.
Kin
New member
losveratos said:
Although it's pretty disingenuous to present that as evidence of his production rather than using PPG. Kessel shouldn't rank higher than someone like Seguin or St. Louis on the virtue of the Leafs having played more games than they have.
I mean, if we're going to frame this in a misleading context I could just as easily say that we shouldn't be happy with Kessel as the team's #1 scorer when he can't outscore some teams #2 centers or #1 defensemen.
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losveratos
Guest
Nik the Trik said:
Ok then... for PPG
Kessel is #30
Bozak is #41
JVR is #65
That's all within the top 90 players for the 1st line in the league.
Even accounting for PPG, theres only a dozen teams with a higher PPG player than Kessel. With Bozak back (assuming he doesn't get hurt again) I would expect to see him continue to climb those ranks though.
Yes I agree that there are better players on other teams... there are always better players on other teams. There's no team in the league with the best player per position all the way down the lineup. Though Chicago came close before trading Bolland. Their goaltending wasn't exactly the best.
But that doesn't mean we don't have a first line. If I have X amount of resources and there are only a handful of players available. (none of which are even in the ballpark of Kessel and perhaps even JVR) Why n earth would I use those resources to address an area on my team that doesn't seem to have any serious shortcomings?
I would address my top 4 D, then the bottom six. After that if there was anything left I could or would want to do... I might try getting a few more draft picks if we were out of the playoffs completely.
I honestly just can't wrap my head around the idea of waiting for a #1C offer to show up or swapping out Kessel or JVR for older better players now.
Kin
New member
losveratos said:
Yeah, but again, the top 90 encompasses the best top line and the worst. Saying that having three players in that range is proof that the Leafs have a good group of first liners would be like someone saying the Leafs have a good team because they're solidly within the top 30 teams in the NHL.
When we examine where the Leafs are and how they're doing the fact that their first line is, at best, mediocre has to be taken into consideration. Is it the biggest problem on the team? No. Would I upgrade other areas before it? Yes. But I don't think that a relatively simple statement like the Leafs don't have a very good first line should be all that controversial, especially considering that we're just talking about one area of evaluation(PPG) and it's arguably the one that puts the first line in the best possible light. It's certainly not the most all-around bunch.
losveratos said:
I don't think that's the benchmark here though. The Leafs first line is not being faulted because they're not the very best in the league but because they're probably far enough down the list in terms of ranking that it would be very hard to argue that the first line is a considerable source of strength for the club. To win a team doesn't need the best of everything, you're right about that, but they do need significant strengths. Areas where they can go up against the better teams in the league and go toe to toe with them.
The Leafs don't really have that right now(unless you're inclined to count goaltending). The Blackhawks don't have the best of everything but they have above average everything. The Leafs, goaltending aside although even that's been dicey the last week or so, right now have below average everything, including the first line.
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losveratos
Guest
I'm pretty lazy when it comes to hard statistics. Are there any websites that would actually spell out points per line? As in add all the points of each player on each 1st line together and compare?That would certainly help. Especially since if there wasn't a resource on that I would have to investigate who plays with who for each team and add it all up myself.
That would just make a travesty of my time ^_^
That would just make a travesty of my time ^_^
losveratos said:
http://hockey.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_production.php?situation=ALL&chkTeamFwd=checkbox&selTeamFwd=TOR&games=2013-2014%3AR%3A99&Submit=Show+Line+Production&sent=go
Man do things go south after the top line.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
Just clicked on a few other teams randomly, and wow is the drop-off on the Leafs crazy.
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losveratos
Guest
CarltonTheBear said:
First of all. Thanks for that ^_^
Secondly... if I'm reading that correctly (And I very well may not be) That first line of bozak/jvr/kessel with ev + pp is pretty near tops in the league easily.
However again... maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Kin
New member
losveratos said:
There's a couple who are significantly above them, Chicago for instance, but I think the problem there is that the Leafs are somewhat atypical in that their #1 PP unit is just a copy of their #1 line. Most other teams choose to add some grit/defense to their top line which drags point totals down but then go for a different look on the PP.
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losveratos
Guest
Nik the Trik said:
I can't speak for all the other teams in the league but... did any of them lose their 1st line center for as long as we did as well? That must have an affect too.
But I think again, weak or strong... our sights should actually be set lower down the line. As was just said. The drop off after our 1st line is insane. We need that Kuli/General/Grabbo line secondary scoring we had 2-3 years ago. We had it a little with Lupul/Kadri Last year. And it was looking like we would again this year with Raymond and Bolland... but we know what happened there.
bustaheims
Active member
Potvin29 said:
Is that really a surprise, though? The bottom 6 forwards the Leafs dressed last night have accounted for all of 10 goals so far this season. On top of that, the team has all of 1 goal from someone other than the top line and Lupul over their last 6 games.
Kin
New member
losveratos said:
I mean, there are a bunch of teams that have dealt with pretty significant injuries to their top line. Tampa is the one that immediately jumps out obviously.
losveratos said:
I don't disagree and the thing is that with Lupul, Kadri and Raymond you have the pieces there that should make for a pretty good second line. I'd like to think that with Bozak back that they'll find their gear and Bolland's return will eventually give a much needed spark to the much maligned third line as well.
I think that's one of the unfortunate things about the season. The Leafs were actually put together with reasonably good scoring depth and, when everyone was healthy, they were getting good results. The problem is that they were never strong down the middle and that's where they've been beaten up all year.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
bustaheims said:
Not a surprise, but it's one thing to think it and another to see it in the numbers.
mr grieves
New member
Nik the Trik said:
Can't say that it's bad luck or fortunate that the scoring depth they went out and acquired -- Holland -- was buried and then sent down to the Marlies. Bolland was working out swimmingly, and losing him has hurt the team. But it's been more than 30 games and no one's figured out how to get any scoring from the third line. That's Carlyle not moving off the plan to have a shutdown third line, even when he doesn't have a sufficiently versatile center on the team to replace Bolland.
Kin
New member
mr grieves said:
I'm not thrilled with that decision either but if the long term goal is for the third line to function in that capacity I understand the reasoning behind not changing things up just while Bolland is out of the line-up.
Anyways, like I said, the rash of injuries at their weakest position hit them hard. I, however, like that Nonis was able to make what looks like a pretty good trade in response to them and I'm eager to see whether or not Bolland's return is just the kick in the pants that this team so sorely needs.
I think based on what I saw while Bozak was out, that Holland is a much better fit on the second line then Kadri. The points speak volumes.
I think if the players were managed right by the coach we would have a better record than we do. I think we have the players to produce four very good lines, when Bolland gets back. its just to bad RC keeps sticking with players that bring nothing to the team, and players that don't mesh still playing together. I think our biggest problem is not a lack of talent but a stubborn coach.
I think if the players were managed right by the coach we would have a better record than we do. I think we have the players to produce four very good lines, when Bolland gets back. its just to bad RC keeps sticking with players that bring nothing to the team, and players that don't mesh still playing together. I think our biggest problem is not a lack of talent but a stubborn coach.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
nutman said:
By golly I think he's onto something!