Reminiscing About The Old (Bad) Days

[Kin]

See, I don't know any of the behind the scenes in this matter. Is that really what happened; they refused to bring him back for another year?

It's more like he took a long time to decide if he was going to play again or not and by the time he made up his mind, Burke had effectively moved on.

Which logically follows, the reason the Leafs wanted to trade Sundin the year before is precisely because it didn't make sense to keep him around.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

It's more like he took a long time to decide if he was going to play again or not and by the time he made up his mind, Burke had effectively moved on.

Which logically follows, the reason the Leafs wanted to trade Sundin the year before is precisely because it didn't make sense to keep him around.

Right, this is probably a better take on the situation. I don't necessarily blame Burke for his decision, while the fanboy in me would have liked to see Sundin return it would have made zero sense for the team really. I mostly just pointed it out for those who might have thought Sundin picked Vancouver over Toronto.

 

[Kin]

I mostly just pointed it out for those who might have thought Sundin picked Vancouver over Toronto.

No, I think it's a good thing to bring up and I think it's also important considering the obviously clearly lingering idea that his signing with Vancouver was some sort of great hypocrisy that undercut what he'd said the previous year(which is pretty clearly a smoke screen. The "fans" who were upset with Sundin didn't wait until he signed with Vancouver to be upset).

 

[Zee]

That's long gone though, and who knows if the Leafs are the same trajectory today if he did agree to a trade and we loaded up on picks/prospects.  Maybe all those lean years aren't so lean and we never get Shanahan?  Hard to say.

The rumoured trade for Sundin was so meh though. Wasn't it just picks and like Chris Higgins? And we can be pretty sure Fletcher and Burke would have just wasted the draft selections on scrubs anyway.

I believe it was Corey Schneider as one of the rumored players which would have gone a long way to stabilizing the Leafs goalie situation during those years.

 

[Zee]

But for Leafs fans, we always seem to get the short end of the stick. 

Or if Sundin wasn't as dedicated to the Leafs as he was, if he was that interested in chasing titles, then he could have left the Leafs long before that on his own volition and gone to a better circumstance of his own choosing. In which case, as before, poor Leafs fans get the short end of the stick of watching a HOF player for the prime years of his career but don't get to capitalize on the assets he could be flogged for.

He couldn't have left of his own volition when he's under contract.  I get it, he was dedicated to the Leafs and wanted to see the final few months of his contract to it's end, but the Leafs were garbage at the time, and a trade to bring in some young players and picks would have been nice.  Other teams always seem to be able to convince their stars to accept a trade later in their careers and do quite well in the deal, but Sundin was the outlier who didn't want to go and try to win a Cup with a contender.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I believe it was Corey Schneider as one of the rumored players which would have gone a long way to stabilizing the Leafs goalie situation during those years.

I really don't recall there being any talk of a Sundin-to-Vancouver trade in those times, and a quick search doesn't bring up any rumours about that either. The Canucks finished 11th in the West that season so I can't imagine they would have been interested in a deal like that.

It was all about Montreal, and it was reported that Sundin used to NTC to block a trade there that included Higgins, a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounder.

 

[Kin]

He couldn't have left of his own volition when he's under contract. 

Right, which is why I said he could have left "long before" then. He repeatedly re-signed with the Leafs despite their future not looking great because of that dedication. If he'd been less dedicated to the team, the Leafs wouldn't have had him to trade.

Sundin being an idiosyncratic kind of guy is probably a pretty fair part of why he was able to thrive in this market the way he did.

 

[Zee]

He couldn't have left of his own volition when he's under contract. 

Right, which is why I said he could have left "long before" then. He repeatedly re-signed with the Leafs despite their future not looking great because of that dedication. If he'd been less dedicated to the team, the Leafs wouldn't have had him to trade.

Sundin being an idiosyncratic kind of guy is probably a pretty fair part of why he was able to thrive in this market the way he did.

Don't know how much that is Sundin or just the "hockey player loyalty" we see so much where players are comfortable where they are and refuse to leave a team despite the fact the team's future looks bleak. Tavares almost stayed with the Islanders at the 11th hour even though the Isles have been a disaster for almost his entire career. 

I agree though that Sundin was a different sort of guy and didn't really care what anyone else thought at the time, so yeah his personality probably helped him survive in this market.

 

[Highlander]

He couldn't have left of his own volition when he's under contract. 

Right, which is why I said he could have left "long before" then. He repeatedly re-signed with the Leafs despite their future not looking great because of that dedication. If he'd been less dedicated to the team, the Leafs wouldn't have had him to trade.

Sundin being an idiosyncratic kind of guy is probably a pretty fair part of why he was able to thrive in this market the way he did.

Don't know how much that is Sundin or just the "hockey player loyalty" we see so much where players are comfortable where they are and refuse to leave a team despite the fact the team's future looks bleak. Tavares almost stayed with the Islanders at the 11th hour even though the Isles have been a disaster for almost his entire career. 

I agree though that Sundin was a different sort of guy and didn't really care what anyone else thought at the time, so yeah his personality probably helped him survive in this market.

Stoic Viking qualities.

 

[Peter D.]

The rumoured trade for Sundin was so meh though. Wasn't it just picks and like Chris Higgins? And we can be pretty sure Fletcher and Burke would have just wasted the draft selections on scrubs anyway.

Grabovski, Higgins and a 1st.  So yeah, Sundin not waiving certainly did not set the team back years in their rebuild.

 

[Kin]

Don't know how much that is Sundin or just the "hockey player loyalty" we see so much where players are comfortable where they are and refuse to leave a team despite the fact the team's future looks bleak. Tavares almost stayed with the Islanders at the 11th hour even though the Isles have been a disaster for almost his entire career. 

I don't see why you need to put loyalty there in quotation marks. Tavares' willingness to possibly stay in Long Island despite their issues might be construed as admirable and, I don't know, going from team to team for personal gratification might actually strike some guys as being a little mercenary and contrary to their actual desires.

 

[Zee]

Don't know how much that is Sundin or just the "hockey player loyalty" we see so much where players are comfortable where they are and refuse to leave a team despite the fact the team's future looks bleak. Tavares almost stayed with the Islanders at the 11th hour even though the Isles have been a disaster for almost his entire career. 

I don't see why you need to put loyalty there in quotation marks. Tavares' willingness to possibly stay in Long Island despite their issues might be construed as admirable and, I don't know, going from team to team for personal gratification might actually strike some guys as being a little mercenary and contrary to their actual desires.

The quotes were specifically for hockey players loyalty not loyalty in general. It seems hockey is the one sport where players don't jump around as often as the other sports.

Why did you put "fans" in quotes when talking about people who were upset with Sundin's decision to stay? You can't be a true fan otherwise?

 

[Kin]

It seems hockey is the one sport where players don't jump around as often as the other sports.

Having the most restrictive CBA for player movement in all of sports probably plays a pretty fair role in that.

Why did you put "fans" in quotes when talking about people who were upset with Sundin's decision to stay? You can't be a true fan otherwise?

Of Sundin's? Not in my opinion, no.

 

[Andy007]

See, I don't know any of the behind the scenes in this matter. Is that really what happened; they refused to bring him back for another year?

It's more like he took a long time to decide if he was going to play again or not and by the time he made up his mind, Burke had effectively moved on.

Which logically follows, the reason the Leafs wanted to trade Sundin the year before is precisely because it didn't make sense to keep him around.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks guys, that Vancouver decision was the only thing I was fuzzy on.

 

[Jimmified]

A quick list:

Gretzky high stick, loosing to CAR in 01-02 after Sundin had tied it with the goalie pulled, JR scoring in OT, Bos 3rd period collapse, blowing a 5-0 nothing lead to STL in the third period, Gilmour lasting 30 seconds in his return to TOR, trading for Kessel setting us back years, Domi knocking out Niedermayer with a cheap shot followed by a 7 shot game 7 against NJD, Cujo signing in DET, Kardi's selfish hissy fit in last years playoffs, Bryan Berard's eyeball injury, being stuck in purgatory finishing 9th or 10th forever.

I am sure I could go on but I won't. We are heavily invested... a win would be unreal.

Very similar to my list.
I would like to add the following:
1. NY Islanders vs NJ Devils shootout to knock out the Leafs. That final game of the season vs Montreal was such a blast which made the disappointment the next day that much greater.
2. Owen Nolan wrecking his knee in 2004 - we never got a healthy Nolan for the playoffs
3. Mogilny concussion in 2003 - he was torching the Flyers till then...
4. Gionta's hit on Reimer
5. The 18-wheeler in 2014

 

[cabber24]

Yea, there are alot of lose-lose scenarios for Sundin here. I still don't understand the Vancouver thing though; I was hoping he'd finish up his career in T.O.


Edit: I echo the Buffalo and Carolina frustration. Hasek missed the first two games and we got stymied by Dwayne freaking Rolson game 1 and then against Carolina we get stymied for an entire round by Arthurs freaking Irbe. I mean, come ON!

My brother and I were at Game 6 versus Carolina. We were sitting behind the goal on the North side of the ACC. We were razzing Irbe so bad that between whistle he actually took his helmet off, looked right at us and scratched his head with his middle finger. The crowd around us all cheered that we got to him.

It literally felt like an earthquake when Sundin tied it. It was the most exhilarating sports moment of my life. Compairable moments for me would be Borschevsky goal, Dave Winfield hit down the third base line, the Joe Carter home run, and the "Golden Goal".

Carolina scored in OT on the other side of the rink from us so it was hard to see but I'll never forget the feeling of seeing the red goal light come on... The only thing you could hear was the Carolina players. You could hear them clear as day. I can still recall the sound of their cheering, profanities and all. The crowd was silent.

As Cujo eventually made his way towards the tunnel I remember yelling at him "don't leave Cujo, come back next year!".

 

[Arn]

As a trans Atlantic fan who was hooked in during a non-hockey related holiday to Toronto by the game that cabber has just talked about*, I thought it was always going to be so exciting... So most of my dark times come from sitting up from face off at midnight until around 3am with my alarm set for 7am for work the next day and having the hope that things are finally turning around crushed for another year.

*(I queued in the morning at the ACC to try and get tickets, I had only seen a few British league hockey games in Belfast prior to this and I kind of knew hockey was kind of a big deal in Canada and that the Leafs were quite a big historic team so thought it might be kind of fun to go to a game. We didn't get near the front of the randomly drawn line in the end so went to the Skydome to see the Blue Jays play the Red Sox. They lost and most people spent the night listening to pocket radios and watching video updates on the Jumbotron, the biggest cheer of the night in the Skydome was also the Sundin goal, and the Jays lost.)

Since then I've made 3 trips to see the Leafs, my first trip was a mixed bag, a 5-2 win over Colorado, followed by a 7-2 thumping by Tampa and then a 2-2 tie v Ottawa.

My next trip, however, was the lowest point for me. Thanks to Scott4bz of this forum for the tickets also! But it was 2013, once again the Leafs were hinting at the seeds of recovery, coming into the December game against the Bruins in a playoff spot and a winning record. An early goal put them up before they crumbled to lose 5-2, the high point being a rare Jay McClement goal. Having travelled pretty much specifically for this game it was a bit of a gut punch to suffer the loss (no other games fitted into the schedule of this trip).

I know that's not really a major dark or low point but it did kind of taint the holiday. However, looking back at the Leafs forward lineup, it was a dark time... Clarkson, McLaren, Ashton, D'Amigo, Liles

 

[disco]

Good thread Michael. Born in '79, interest in '87, earnest in '93, with them since. So the gap between Fletcher (1st tour) and Quinn was a dip but not that long. The desolation of lockout/JFJ/Burkie failure would be the big one, as I'm sure everyone here can attest to. That mushy middle of fool's gold.

The Future:
16-17: Lost First Round
17-18: Lost First Round
18-19: Lost Cup Final
19-20: Won Stanley Cup

 

[disco]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmmBPsxg-DY&list=LL7nUCeYSULo1Eo_8tfQOWtA&t=0s&index=2
Here's some great old Bob Cole calls. Late nineties / early 2000's for the Leafs. Classics.
The Bob Cole: "HE'S IN!.... scORRrrrRRR" old man tremor is legendary.

https://twitter.com/hockeynight/status/1053806937761107969