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Ryan O'Reilly

More statistical analysis on O'Reilly.

O'Reilly kicked off his NHL career with back-to-back 26-point seasons on Colorado's checking lines before vaulting to 55 points in 2011-12 on their top unit, earning him more total points than currently all but three players drafted in 2009, including the player the Avs selected ahead of him, Matt Duchene.

...

When players make that kind of scoring jump, it's natural to wonder if it's temporary, but have no fear. Most youngsters O'Reilly's age (20) haven't even cracked an NHL lineup yet, and most players haven't even begun to peak for another three seasons.

Sudden improvements can sometimes be explained by favorable playing conditions or tremendous shooting luck ("riding the percentages") and can therefore ultimately prove temporary, but this really isn't the case with O'Reilly.

Was O'Reilly riding luck shooting percentages? No, his shooting percentage was actually down last season, from 10.9% to a modest 9.5%. His on-ice shooting percentage was also down, from 7.7% as a rookie to an almost miserable 6.6% these past two seasons.

Was O'Reilly enjoying favorable ice-time? No, he was being used against the toughest opponents, often in the defensive zone, and the only help he got was from a rookie (albeit a uniquely talented one in Gabriel Landeskog).

Some players have indeed fooled analysts and fans with sudden and dramatic increases in scoring, but it would be very surprising if such a young and well-rounded two-way playmaker turns out to be one of them.

...

O'Reilly started off as a defensive star in the OHL, being voted the conference's best penalty killer in his final season, and he went on to finish sixth among NHL forwards in penalty killing time the following season?an amazing feat for an 18-year-old rookie.

Playing on the checking line alongside glorified thug Cody McLeod and the completely expended veteran Darcy Tucker, O'Reilly started only 43.0% of his shifts in the offensive zone?second lowest on the team.

It would drop to an even lower 40.0% the following season, a year that was fortunately spent with a significantly upgraded linemate in Daniel Winnik. His team-leading takeaway rate of 3.0 per 60 minutes went up to an even higher 3.6, and would somehow continue to rise up to 3.8 last season?all of which is especially amazing when compared to his stingy giveaway rates of 1.2 to 1.4 per 60 minutes.

To determine how well a team is performing with certain players on the ice, we like to use the Relative Corsi statistic, which is simply a player's shot-based plus/minus per minute relative to his teammates. This critical (albeit contextual) metric measures a player's possession-driving ability, and is truly the hockey breakthrough equivalent to on-base percentage in baseball.

In this important regard, O'Reilly gave the Avalanche an advantage of an amazing 11.1 shots per 60 minutes in 2010-11 playing with Winnik, followed by an amazing 12.4 last year with Landeskog.

While the percentage of shifts O'Reilly starts in the offensive zone rose from second lowest among the team's forwards in his two teenage years, his more balanced 50% last year was still sixth lowest. He also went from facing third line competition to being trusted with the second-toughest competition on the team.

In short, not only was O'Reilly the player to whom the team turned when top opponents like the Sedins were on the ice, but he absolutely dominated them possession-wise.

...

In the NHL, he has been even better, taking just 23 minor penalties in 236 games. He has also consistently drawn 0.8 minor penalties per 60 minutes throughout his career, a true and undervalued 'Moneypuck' talent that translates into roughly 0.2 goals per additional power play opportunity.

Speaking of undervalued Moneypuck talent, O'Reilly took 31.3% of the team's faceoffs last year, winning 52.8% of them, up from 51.8% the year before. Each faceoff win keeps the puck out of the opponent's possession, and helps give Colorado the next opportunity to score. In general, every 76 additional faceoff wins is worth a goal (according to Michael Schuckers' latest study), or just 41 on special teams. Last year, O'Reilly had 81 extra faceoff wins, of which 21 were on special teams.

...

According to GVS (Goals Versus Salary, which measures a player's contributions relative to a comparably-priced player), O'Reilly is easily worth $4 million per season today, just like Colorado offered P.A. Parenteau and David Jones this summer, and could be a great theft target if he is offered any less.

Colorado has been enjoying O'Reilly's services for a cap hit of just $900,000 per year throughout his entry-level contract, which made him one of the league's best values according to GVS. In total, he provided an extra 13.5 goals of value?or a savings of $4.5 million if you prefer to look at it that way?over his three seasons.

Turning to history to help plot his career path, the list of the most statistically comparable players at his age actually include Mark Messier and Joe Thornton. The closest match is probably Troy Murray, a strong defensive-minded, penalty-killing, playmaking, faceoff-winning forward for the Chicago Blackhawks throughout the 1980s, who won the 1996 Stanley Cup with the Avs in the twilight of his career. Murray, who was far more physical and had a much better shot, won the Selke Trophy as the league's top defensive player at age 23, something we wouldn't be surprised to see matched by O'Reilly.

As for scoring, both of the two most popular statistical projection systems (VUKOTA and Snepsts) have him down for an exact repeat of his 55 points, but with a potentially much higher long-term upside.

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1423
 
His numbers all look really good, but... it's.... just....one... season... of ... success.  We've seen a million times guys have a huge season and then never repeat it.  How do we know he's going to continue to get better or worse, not regress?

Too small a body of work to base a decision on stats, IMO.  If I were a GM I would be digging up 5 years of scouting notes on this guy plus what my pro scout eyes have seen this past year.   
 
Perhaps he realizes it may be a flash in the pan and that's the reason he's holding out for the big pay cheque. I sure as heck hope that the Leafs don't pay it.
 
Corn Flake said:
His numbers all look really good, but... it's.... just....one... season... of ... success.  We've seen a million times guys have a huge season and then never repeat it.  How do we know he's going to continue to get better or worse, not regress?

Too small a body of work to base a decision on stats, IMO.  If I were a GM I would be digging up 5 years of scouting notes on this guy plus what my pro scout eyes have seen this past year. 

You could say that about any young player really, but his comparable PPG stats at his age are impressive.  I don't think anyone is saying to base any decision on O'Reilly based solely off of numbers, but based upon a combination of watching him play, scouting, and statistics.  Even the most ardent advanced stats guys only advocate using them in combination with other traditional tools, and in context. 
 
Potvin29 said:
Corn Flake said:
His numbers all look really good, but... it's.... just....one... season... of ... success.  We've seen a million times guys have a huge season and then never repeat it.  How do we know he's going to continue to get better or worse, not regress?

Too small a body of work to base a decision on stats, IMO.  If I were a GM I would be digging up 5 years of scouting notes on this guy plus what my pro scout eyes have seen this past year. 

You could say that about any young player really, but his comparable PPG stats at his age are impressive.  I don't think anyone is saying to base any decision on O'Reilly based solely off of numbers, but based upon a combination of watching him play, scouting, and statistics.  Even the most ardent advanced stats guys only advocate using them in combination with other traditional tools, and in context.

Well I've seen at least one site (PPP) putting him up there with Crosby, Malkin, Ovie, Stamkos, Skinner as playres who have produced similar stats while under 20 years old. 

Soooo yeah some lofty assumptions going on based on one year of numbers, and only numbers from that particular point of view.  Seen a lot of others using stats only to justify the ROR fetish.

I agree with you ... based on what eyeballs have seen of this guy you make the call and the nice looking stats are one piece of info.
 
Corn Flake said:
Potvin29 said:
Corn Flake said:
His numbers all look really good, but... it's.... just....one... season... of ... success.  We've seen a million times guys have a huge season and then never repeat it.  How do we know he's going to continue to get better or worse, not regress?

Too small a body of work to base a decision on stats, IMO.  If I were a GM I would be digging up 5 years of scouting notes on this guy plus what my pro scout eyes have seen this past year. 

You could say that about any young player really, but his comparable PPG stats at his age are impressive.  I don't think anyone is saying to base any decision on O'Reilly based solely off of numbers, but based upon a combination of watching him play, scouting, and statistics.  Even the most ardent advanced stats guys only advocate using them in combination with other traditional tools, and in context.

Well I've seen at least one site (PPP) putting him up there with Crosby, Malkin, Ovie, Stamkos, Skinner as playres who have produced similar stats while under 20 years old. 

Soooo yeah some lofty assumptions going on based on one year of numbers, and only numbers from that particular point of view.  Seen a lot of others using stats only to justify the ROR fetish.

I agree with you ... based on what eyeballs have seen of this guy you make the call and the nice looking stats are one piece of info.

I'm not sure what PPP post you're talking about, but I posted one earlier that had comparables from their site and none of them are those players:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/4/3938826/why-the-maple-leafs-should-offer-sheet-ryan-oreilly

Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Havlat, Bernier, Getzlaf, Tanguay, Wolski, Horton
 
Potvin29 said:
Corn Flake said:
Potvin29 said:
Corn Flake said:
His numbers all look really good, but... it's.... just....one... season... of ... success.  We've seen a million times guys have a huge season and then never repeat it.  How do we know he's going to continue to get better or worse, not regress?

Too small a body of work to base a decision on stats, IMO.  If I were a GM I would be digging up 5 years of scouting notes on this guy plus what my pro scout eyes have seen this past year. 

You could say that about any young player really, but his comparable PPG stats at his age are impressive.  I don't think anyone is saying to base any decision on O'Reilly based solely off of numbers, but based upon a combination of watching him play, scouting, and statistics.  Even the most ardent advanced stats guys only advocate using them in combination with other traditional tools, and in context.

Well I've seen at least one site (PPP) putting him up there with Crosby, Malkin, Ovie, Stamkos, Skinner as playres who have produced similar stats while under 20 years old. 

Soooo yeah some lofty assumptions going on based on one year of numbers, and only numbers from that particular point of view.  Seen a lot of others using stats only to justify the ROR fetish.

I agree with you ... based on what eyeballs have seen of this guy you make the call and the nice looking stats are one piece of info.

I'm not sure what PPP post you're talking about, but I posted one earlier that had comparables from their site and none of them are those players:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/4/3938826/why-the-maple-leafs-should-offer-sheet-ryan-oreilly

Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Havlat, Bernier, Getzlaf, Tanguay, Wolski, Horton

I wouldn't move a significant amount for about half of those guys.

So it's about 50/50. If he turns out to be Thornton, Lecavalier, Spezza or Getzlaf you win the trade.

If his career goes the direction of the others.......well they're hardly franchise cornerstones.
 
Corn Flake said:
Potvin29 said:
Corn Flake said:
His numbers all look really good, but... it's.... just....one... season... of ... success.  We've seen a million times guys have a huge season and then never repeat it.  How do we know he's going to continue to get better or worse, not regress?

Too small a body of work to base a decision on stats, IMO.  If I were a GM I would be digging up 5 years of scouting notes on this guy plus what my pro scout eyes have seen this past year. 

You could say that about any young player really, but his comparable PPG stats at his age are impressive.  I don't think anyone is saying to base any decision on O'Reilly based solely off of numbers, but based upon a combination of watching him play, scouting, and statistics.  Even the most ardent advanced stats guys only advocate using them in combination with other traditional tools, and in context.

Well I've seen at least one site (PPP) putting him up there with Crosby, Malkin, Ovie, Stamkos, Skinner as playres who have produced similar stats while under 20 years old. 

Soooo yeah some lofty assumptions going on based on one year of numbers, and only numbers from that particular point of view.  Seen a lot of others using stats only to justify the ROR fetish.

I certainly haven't seen all the comparisons made in the world, but I have seen a few.  I haven't seen anyone compare him to Crosby, Malkin, Ovie, or Stamkos. Obviously, those comparisons would be inaccurate and no sensible person expects him to be that good and his stats at age 20 don't come remotely close to any of those guys.  eg:  Malkin as a rookie at 20 scored 85 points.  Stamkos scored 95 and 51 goals in his second season (as a 19-20 year old) ... Ovie, Crosby, etc.

I think people are suggesting he may become a top 25 center (still an incredibly valuable and hard-to-get commodity) but not a top 5 center.
 
Chev-boyar-sky said:
I'm not sure what PPP post you're talking about, but I posted one earlier that had comparables from their site and none of them are those players:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/4/3938826/why-the-maple-leafs-should-offer-sheet-ryan-oreilly

Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Havlat, Bernier, Getzlaf, Tanguay, Wolski, Horton

I wouldn't move a significant amount for about half of those guys.

So it's about 50/50. If he turns out to be Thornton, Lecavalier, Spezza or Getzlaf you win the trade.

If his career goes the direction of the others.......well they're hardly franchise cornerstones.
[/quote]

If those guys accurately represent the probability distribution of O'Reilly's scoring career, that is pretty spectacular and one should really have to give up a lot to get a 20-year-old with that kind of projection.  That looks like the kind of projection you'd get for perhaps a #2 overall draft pick.  There are only 2 busts (Wolski, Bernier).  Of course #2 overalls will bust some times too.  I would say that a *center* with the scoring potential of Tanguay, Horton, or Havlat in their prime coupled with what I've heard about O'Reilly's incredible defensive potential (some say future selke candidate) would very, very comfortably make him a first-line center.  Eg:  Horton-as-center-with-great-defence sounds like Patrice Bergeron, but a slightly better goal scorer.  That would appear to be the kind of guy that could help anchor a stanley cup run.  Tanguay had multiple ppg seasons --- imagine if he actually played on the defensive side of the ice against top opponents!
 
Zee said:
I hope he gets traded to some other team soon so we can stop talking about this guy.

I should point out that I'm not necessarily advocating breaking the bank to get him, but just presenting the argument that I think he's going to be a very good, very valuable player that I would love to have.  I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions, though. 
 
Zee said:
I hope he gets traded to some other team soon so we can stop talking about this guy.

I hope Nonis makes a good trade to come play for the Leafs so we can talk about him some more.  ;)
 
Potvin29 said:
I'm not sure what PPP post you're talking about, but I posted one earlier that had comparables from their site and none of them are those players:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/4/3938826/why-the-maple-leafs-should-offer-sheet-ryan-oreilly

Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Havlat, Bernier, Getzlaf, Tanguay, Wolski, Horton

There is a small detail being over looked when 5'11" ROR is being compared to Lecavalier, Thornton, and Getzlaf.
 
Britishbulldog said:
Potvin29 said:
I'm not sure what PPP post you're talking about, but I posted one earlier that had comparables from their site and none of them are those players:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/4/3938826/why-the-maple-leafs-should-offer-sheet-ryan-oreilly

Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Havlat, Bernier, Getzlaf, Tanguay, Wolski, Horton

There is a small detail being over looked when 5'11" ROR is being compared to Lecavalier, Thornton, and Getzlaf.

That's because it's a list of comparable PPG players at that age, not similar players in height.
 
Potvin29 said:
Britishbulldog said:
Potvin29 said:
I'm not sure what PPP post you're talking about, but I posted one earlier that had comparables from their site and none of them are those players:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/4/3938826/why-the-maple-leafs-should-offer-sheet-ryan-oreilly

Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Havlat, Bernier, Getzlaf, Tanguay, Wolski, Horton

There is a small detail being over looked when 5'11" ROR is being compared to Lecavalier, Thornton, and Getzlaf.

That's because it's a list of comparable PPG players at that age, not similar players in height.

Oh.  I overlooked that....
 
Britishbulldog said:
Potvin29 said:
Britishbulldog said:
Potvin29 said:
I'm not sure what PPP post you're talking about, but I posted one earlier that had comparables from their site and none of them are those players:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/4/3938826/why-the-maple-leafs-should-offer-sheet-ryan-oreilly

Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Havlat, Bernier, Getzlaf, Tanguay, Wolski, Horton

There is a small detail being over looked when 5'11" ROR is being compared to Lecavalier, Thornton, and Getzlaf.

That's because it's a list of comparable PPG players at that age, not similar players in height.

Oh.  I overlooked that....

Much like any centre who is over 6'1" will be overlooking him....
 
Potvin29 said:
I'm not sure what PPP post you're talking about, but I posted one earlier that had comparables from their site and none of them are those players:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/4/3938826/why-the-maple-leafs-should-offer-sheet-ryan-oreilly

Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Havlat, Bernier, Getzlaf, Tanguay, Wolski, Horton

Sorry I should be more clear.. it wasn't a piece on their site it was a tweet with a link to a search result on hockey reference and it had O'Rielly in and amongst the guys I mentioned.  I don't really read their site so I hadn't seen this piece.
 
Potvin29 said:
Zee said:
I hope he gets traded to some other team soon so we can stop talking about this guy.

I should point out that I'm not necessarily advocating breaking the bank to get him, but just presenting the argument that I think he's going to be a very good, very valuable player that I would love to have.  I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions, though.

I want him a Leaf so I can feverishly work on popularizing a new nickname for him.... 'Baba' O'Reilly.
 
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