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Series 1: Blue Jays @ Rays

Boston Leaf said:
I think that gets called regardless. New rule or not. Ya cant reach out to grab a guys ankle. Now he didn't pull at it but still.. Cant do that..thing is it really had no impact. That throw probably would have happened anyway.
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He didn't reach out to grab the ankle, though. He has his arm out like that to control his speed/direction and to keep himself from falling over. Guys have been sliding with their arm out like there basically since sliding into bases was introduced into the game.
 
bustaheims said:
If that's the standard for the new rule, I'm not a fan. I'm all for protecting the players from slides that are made with no intention of getting to the base, but the runners need to be afforded some leeway. It would be one thing if Jose really grabbed onto the guy's leg/ankle/foot, but, I have a hard time buying that's what took place there.
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+1

I bet MLB tweaks their interpretation as the season goes on and more teams complain.  Bet we'll see "worse" offenses than what Jose did last night and it'll be let go. It's never good to be one of the first teams where they call a new rule.
 
bustaheims said:
Boston Leaf said:
I think that gets called regardless. New rule or not. Ya cant reach out to grab a guys ankle. Now he didn't pull at it but still.. Cant do that..thing is it really had no impact. That throw probably would have happened anyway.
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He didn't reach out to grab the ankle, though. He has his arm out like that to control his speed/direction and to keep himself from falling over. Guys have been sliding with their arm out like there basically since sliding into bases was introduced into the game.
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And really what's the difference between that and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYd3Lt37FG4

Other than in one case you're sliding with your leg out and the other with you arm out?  Only other difference is the Rays player jumped out of the way in one while didn't last night.

But I think the idea behind both those slides is the exact same.  Not sure why MLB feels the need to differentiate.
 
Potvin29 said:
Other than in one case you're sliding with your leg out and the other with you arm out?  Only other difference is the Rays player jumped out of the way in one while didn't last night.

But I think the idea behind both those slides is the exact same.  Not sure why MLB feels the need to differentiate.
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Well, the difference is one came before the new rule was put in place, and the other came after.

I get the thinking behind the rule - with everything we've learned about concussions and such, when looking at force plays, eliminating slides where the purpose isn't to get to the base is a reasonable precaution. I just think they've set the standard for what violates that way too low. Incidental contact is going to happen. A already outstretched hand glancing off a foot/ankle shouldn't be enough to make a slide illegal. If Bautista raises his arm there, or clearly takes hold of the Rays' player's foot, that woudl be one thing, but the foot was really just in his path, and his hand slid right off. This rule was made to eliminate slides where guys come in so far from the bag they can barely reach it with the tips of their fingers or guys coming in with with spikes up. They want to eliminate intentional take-downs, not legit slides with marginal contact.
 
bustaheims said:
Potvin29 said:
Other than in one case you're sliding with your leg out and the other with you arm out?  Only other difference is the Rays player jumped out of the way in one while didn't last night.

But I think the idea behind both those slides is the exact same.  Not sure why MLB feels the need to differentiate.
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Well, the difference is one came before the new rule was put in place, and the other came after.
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Well I was piggybacking on your reply to the original quote which said "I think that gets called regardless. New rule or not."  Many people were saying that wouldn't have been allowed last season either.
 
Potvin29 said:
Well I was piggybacking on your reply to the original quote which said "I think that gets called regardless. New rule or not."  Many people were saying that wouldn't have been allowed last season either.
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Ahh, fair enough. If Bautista had legitimately grabbed a hold of the Rays' player's leg/foot, it probably would have been, but incidental contact like that? Nope.
 
bustaheims said:
Potvin29 said:
Well I was piggybacking on your reply to the original quote which said "I think that gets called regardless. New rule or not."  Many people were saying that wouldn't have been allowed last season either.
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Ahh, fair enough. If Bautista had legitimately grabbed a hold of the Rays' player's leg/foot, it probably would have been, but incidental contact like that? Nope.
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Yeah I don't get how people are saying he grabbed onto his leg.  Looks to me like he hits the leg and slides on by.
 
So the Jays blow a lead late again.  Cecil wasn't available because he pitched two games in a row (and doesn't look fully healthy).  Osuna wasn't available to pitch the 8th because Gibbons is a slave to the closer only pitches the 9th.  And Storen wasn't available because he warmed up on Monday/Tuesday but didn't pitch in either game.  That's some fine quality bullpen management.
 
So the Jays blow a one run lead late and lose 5-3 to split the series.

Mildly disappointing to drop the last two games (especially in the fashion that they did) but not the end of the world by any means.

The pitching for the most part was great (especially the starters) and if they can maintain anywhere near that level the Jays should be fine as it's inevitable that this offense will come around. I'd much rather take a split with pitching like that versus four high scoring games.

Donaldson left the game in the 8th but apparently only has a mild calf issue and he expects to play on Friday.

I think the decision by Gibbons to bring in Leon with 1 out in the 8th was questionable though. Cecil, Storen, Chavez weren't available so it was down to keeping Floyd in, bringing in Osuna for 5 outs, or opting for Morales/Biagini over Leon. I'm not sure my first choice would've been Leon there. 
 
Potvin29 said:
Joy, another season of every time the bullpen blowing the lead being blamed on Gibbons' bullpen management.
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Putting Leon, the guy who will be sent down once Estrada comes off the DL, in a close game in that situation is absolutely bonkers. Storen pitched a grand total of one inning that series. For some reason he was "unavailable." Oh, and the Jays have an off day today. But half the bullpen was unavailable yesterday.

If you have no problem with that, fine, just don't expect reasonable people not to question questionable moves like that.
 
Beowulf said:
I think the decision by Gibbons to bring in Leon with 1 out in the 8th was questionable though. Cecil, Storen, Chavez weren't available so it was down to keeping Floyd in, bringing in Osuna for 5 outs, or opting for Morales/Biagini over Leon. I'm not sure my first choice would've been Leon there.
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You can't manage game 4 of the season like it was game 162 with the season on the line. Sometimes, early in the season, you're going to throw guys out there to see what they do in game situations so that when the games do get big time you're working with some real information.

 
Nik the Trik said:
Beowulf said:
I think the decision by Gibbons to bring in Leon with 1 out in the 8th was questionable though. Cecil, Storen, Chavez weren't available so it was down to keeping Floyd in, bringing in Osuna for 5 outs, or opting for Morales/Biagini over Leon. I'm not sure my first choice would've been Leon there.
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You can't manage game 4 of the season like it was game 162 with the season on the line. Sometimes, early in the season, you're going to throw guys out there to see what they do in game situations so that when the games do get big time you're working with some real information.
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A win in game 4 counts just as much as a win in game 162. But anyway, Leon isn't a prospect; he's on the team because Estrada and Loup are on the DL. You don't need any "real" information on him because when Estrada comes back he's being sent to AAA as quickly as you can say 'cash considerations.' He's a AAA pitcher who sees MLB time on a bad or terribly desperate team. And Beowulf simply wondering if Leon would be his first choice in that situation is a perfectly normal reaction.
 
Andy007 said:
But anyway, Leon isn't a prospect; he's on the team because Estrada and Loup are on the DL. You don't need any "real" information on him because when Estrada comes back he's being sent to AAA as quickly as you can say 'cash considerations.' 
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Right and how likely is it that the team's pitching staff is perfectly healthy for the rest of the season? If Leon is the team's first call up in case of injury then there's real value in seeing what he can do in an actual game and knowing for certain if he's someone who can be relied on when injuries inevitably deplete the bullpen down the line or if the team will need to look elsewhere, whether within the organization or not.

But yes, wondering about that decision is perfectly normal. I think that there's real logic to it and I was adding that perspective. It's a long season and not every managerial move is going to be made from the mindset of "OMG IF WE DON'T WIN TONIGHT EVERYTHING IS RUINED!" and nor should it be.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Beowulf said:
I think the decision by Gibbons to bring in Leon with 1 out in the 8th was questionable though. Cecil, Storen, Chavez weren't available so it was down to keeping Floyd in, bringing in Osuna for 5 outs, or opting for Morales/Biagini over Leon. I'm not sure my first choice would've been Leon there.
Click to expand...

You can't manage game 4 of the season like it was game 162 with the season on the line. Sometimes, early in the season, you're going to throw guys out there to see what they do in game situations so that when the games do get big time you're working with some real information.
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Fair enough Nik. My first instinct would have been to put Osuna out there for 5 outs. But I suppose he'd already saved the first two games and it would have been short sighted to potentially overwork him. Unless you ignore the closer tag and bring him in just to get out of that jam, but yeah I'm not convinced by that option either.

There's solid logic to putting guys in game situations early in the season but that was certainly a high pressure one for Leon to walk into right off the bat. I'm still not convinced Leon was the right call over Morales or keeping Floyd in but I acknowledge I'm nitpicking and there was no obvious "right" call.

To be clear though I certainly wasn't blaming the loss on Gibbons' decision by any means, merely unsure about it. The offense simply wasn't productive enough in the final two games (throughout the series really).
 
In other news Donaldson will DH today because of the calf issue. EE starts at 1st and Barney starts at 3rd.
 
Dan Shulman calling the Jays on the home opener...beautiful.

Jays leading 3-2 after Pillar gets a fastball to the bill of his helmet with the bases loaded.
 
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