Should Lupul be captain?

[AvroArrow]

No, he should be traded.  He's older and injury prone, but should have good value.  It could also open some much needed cap space to improve the roster.

If 'we' as fans on a message board know that Lupul is 'old' and injury prone, what are the chances that a GM out there doesn't know the same thing?

Likely 0, but I don't see your point.  Just because he's older and injury prone doesn't mean he doesn't have value, if that's where you're going.

 

[bustaheims]

Can they trade him?  They've been handing out trade clauses like candy.  JFJ would be proud.

There isn't a single player on the roster that's signed past this season that has a full NTC.

 

[2badknees]

No, he should be traded.  He's older and injury prone, but should have good value.  It could also open some much needed cap space to improve the roster.

If 'we' as fans on a message board know that Lupul is 'old' and injury prone, what are the chances that a GM out there doesn't know the same thing?

Likely 0, but I don't see your point.  Just because he's older and injury prone doesn't mean he doesn't have value, if that's where you're going.

I think perhaps your original term "good value" is the variable he's questioning. What are you defining it as?

Regardless, there's lots of players/contracts I'd prioritize moving before getting to Lupul as part of a full rebuild.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

No, he should be traded.  He's older and injury prone, but should have good value.  It could also open some much needed cap space to improve the roster.

If 'we' as fans on a message board know that Lupul is 'old' and injury prone, what are the chances that a GM out there doesn't know the same thing?

Likely 0, but I don't see your point.  Just because he's older and injury prone doesn't mean he doesn't have value, if that's where you're going.

I never said he had 'no' value. I personally think he has quite a bit of value.

I take issue with the 'old' comment as he's only 30. I don't necessarily disagree with the injury prone part but that can be said for many players.

But let's say that he is 'old' and 'injury prone'.....What makes you think that he does have 'good value'? What makes you think that a player we(you) consider old and injury prone wouldn't be considered the same to the other 29 teams out there? So now why would they give up significant value for a player with those shortcomings?


It's irrelevant I think though because I'm not too sure many people would be interested in moving Lupul regardless. He's only 30, a good leader, and a talented player.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I knew his offense would come back down to earth a bit, but Lupul has been held pointless in 21 of 33 games this season.  He's had a handful of multi-point games, but he's only registered points in 5 of his last 20 games.

Interesting considering the amount of flak that Kadri gets while Lupul seems to avoid it despite playing equally poor defense (and in fact is suggested as a new captain) and being a more veteran player than Kadri (Lupul on 82 game pace for 53 points, Kadri for 48).

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

It's pretty scary when you look at everybody's point totals the last few weeks. Kadri, Lupul, Raymond. And then there's the obvious ones in McClement, Kulemin, and Clarkson. Heck, even JVR only has 1 goal in 10 games. Kessel has 3 in 9. More of a reason why all 4 lines should be thrown into a blender at this point, but aside from Bozak coming back everything's essentially been set in stone.

 

[mr grieves]

I knew his offense would come back down to earth a bit, but Lupul has been held pointless in 21 of 33 games this season.  He's had a handful of multi-point games, but he's only registered points in 5 of his last 20 games.

Interesting considering the amount of flak that Kadri gets while Lupul seems to avoid it despite playing equally poor defense (and in fact is suggested as a new captain) and being a more veteran player than Kadri (Lupul on 82 game pace for 53 points, Kadri for 48).

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

Agreed, but I don't think it's all on the players on the second (often third) line. What are the secondary scoring options on this team? There's the second line, but after that, nothing: a checking line that barely gets pucks at the net, and a fourth line of sub-NHLers (except for that center that cost a second rounder). It's not scoring slumps or failures of execution that's depriving the team of secondary scoring options. Those players, in those combinations, just are not going to score. And the Leafs' "secondary" scoring option can't be just one line, because that line's not always going to be going (they're on pace for a few over 50 points on the season, and that sounds about right for a second line, no?).

 

[Highlander]

Lupul is scoring in the shootouts our favourite game of chance.

 

[Bullfrog]

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

It's pretty scary when you look at everybody's point totals the last few weeks. Kadri, Lupul, Raymond. And then there's the obvious ones in McClement, Kulemin, and Clarkson. Heck, even JVR only has 1 goal in 10 games. Kessel has 3 in 9. More of a reason why all 4 lines should be thrown into a blender at this point, but aside from Bozak coming back everything's essentially been set in stone.

Agreed. It's a simple truth, I think, that the current situation isn't working. So start from scratch. Bozak has been playing well, but why not put him on the third and see if he can help get some offense from Clarkson or Raymond or Kulemin? JvR and Kessel have enough talent to handle a lesser centre, so why not give Holland a shot on the 1st line? Just try something.

Bring up some players from the Marlies.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Agreed. It's a simple truth, I think, that the current situation isn't working. So start from scratch. Bozak has been playing well, but why not put him on the third and see if he can help get some offense from Clarkson or Raymond or Kulemin? JvR and Kessel have enough talent to handle a lesser centre, so why not give Holland a shot on the 1st line? Just try something.

Bring up some players from the Marlies.

I'd keep Bozak and Kessel together. It's going to happen anyways so why fight it? But I would move JVR down the line-up to see if he can get Kadri going and put Lupul on the top line to get him going. Call up Leivo too if Clarkson is going to miss some time and go with:

Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
JVR-Kadri-Leivo
Raymond-Holland-Kulemin
D'Amigo-McClement-Orr

 

[ZBBM]

I knew his offense would come back down to earth a bit, but Lupul has been held pointless in 21 of 33 games this season.  He's had a handful of multi-point games, but he's only registered points in 5 of his last 20 games.

Interesting considering the amount of flak that Kadri gets while Lupul seems to avoid it despite playing equally poor defense (and in fact is suggested as a new captain) and being a more veteran player than Kadri (Lupul on 82 game pace for 53 points, Kadri for 48).

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

How is this relevant to whether he'd be a better captain than Phaneuf?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I knew his offense would come back down to earth a bit, but Lupul has been held pointless in 21 of 33 games this season.  He's had a handful of multi-point games, but he's only registered points in 5 of his last 20 games.

Interesting considering the amount of flak that Kadri gets while Lupul seems to avoid it despite playing equally poor defense (and in fact is suggested as a new captain) and being a more veteran player than Kadri (Lupul on 82 game pace for 53 points, Kadri for 48).

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

How is this relevant to whether he'd be a better captain than Phaneuf?

How is it not? If on-ice play was irrelevant then the league would be made up of 3rd/4th line pluggers as captains who said a lot of "let's go boys!"

 

[AvroArrow]

I never said he had 'no' value. I personally think he has quite a bit of value.

I take issue with the 'old' comment as he's only 30. I don't necessarily disagree with the injury prone part but that can be said for many players.

But let's say that he is 'old' and 'injury prone'.....What makes you think that he does have 'good value'? What makes you think that a player we(you) consider old and injury prone wouldn't be considered the same to the other 29 teams out there? So now why would they give up significant value for a player with those shortcomings?


It's irrelevant I think though because I'm not too sure many people would be interested in moving Lupul regardless. He's only 30, a good leader, and a talented player.

Well, I specifically and intentionally said, "older".  The implication being that he's not a young guy anymore and is starting to get to that point where things start trailing off.  The idea here is to move him now before that "trailing off" really starts happening.

I say that he has 'good value' because when he plays, he's still fairly effective and has shown (from the outside looking in) good leadership qualities.

Let's keep a few things in mind here.  With Lupul, you get pro's and con's.  We're all aware of his pro's and his con's.  You seem to be focusing on his con's like they're all that exist.  His value is derived from his pro's minus his con's.

Take Lupul, remove his injury prone-ness, and drop his age to 27.  His value would be quite high, a 1st + A-prospect, maybe?  However, given he does have injury concerns, and his age is already 30, we're obviously not going to get that.  Those negatives will drive the value down, but I don't think it'll drive it down to a level where it would be pointless.

Maybe when I said 'good value', you thought I meant more than I actually did.  I was really thinking something along the lines of Kulemin-type roster player + pick, or 2nd + B-prospect.

In the end, his age, cap hit, and injury concerns are reasons why I think we should move him.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

Unless we are in the dressing room we have no idea how the players interact with each other.  It is the captain who is the intercessor between the players and the coach, so the players would want someone they can trust and respect to keep things confidential when an issue is brought to the coach by the captain.  I also see a captain as being someone who is willing to get on the players backs when they are not performing up to snuff, and who at the same time will take the criticism when he is not performing up to snuff. 

Having said all that, would Lupul make a better captain than Phaneuf?  I do not know.  When Phaneuf was named captain, were there other candidates?  Did any other player want to be captain?  Again, I do not know.  What I do know is Phaneuf is playing a lot better this season than any other time with the Leafs so I hope he keeps it up.

 

[ZBBM]

I knew his offense would come back down to earth a bit, but Lupul has been held pointless in 21 of 33 games this season.  He's had a handful of multi-point games, but he's only registered points in 5 of his last 20 games.

Interesting considering the amount of flak that Kadri gets while Lupul seems to avoid it despite playing equally poor defense (and in fact is suggested as a new captain) and being a more veteran player than Kadri (Lupul on 82 game pace for 53 points, Kadri for 48).

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

How is this relevant to whether he'd be a better captain than Phaneuf?

How is it not? If on-ice play was irrelevant then the league would be made up of 3rd/4th line pluggers as captains who said a lot of "let's go boys!"

But your point seems to be that he's not the highest scorer on the team.  My suggestion is that he's got better leadership qualities than Phaneuf.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I knew his offense would come back down to earth a bit, but Lupul has been held pointless in 21 of 33 games this season.  He's had a handful of multi-point games, but he's only registered points in 5 of his last 20 games.

Interesting considering the amount of flak that Kadri gets while Lupul seems to avoid it despite playing equally poor defense (and in fact is suggested as a new captain) and being a more veteran player than Kadri (Lupul on 82 game pace for 53 points, Kadri for 48).

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

How is this relevant to whether he'd be a better captain than Phaneuf?

How is it not? If on-ice play was irrelevant then the league would be made up of 3rd/4th line pluggers as captains who said a lot of "let's go boys!"

But your point seems to be that he's not the highest scorer on the team.  My suggestion is that he's got better leadership qualities than Phaneuf.

My point is more that I've read a few times on here that Lupul has "stepped up" or variations on that during their "slump".  I would argue that Lupul has been wildly inconsistent on the ice, and in fact has not stepped up at all during their slide.  He's paid a good deal of money to provide offense and has not done so - part of leadership is playing to your role on the club, and his is to be that offensive guy because, like Kessel, they don't provide much elsewhere on the ice.

That's not to say Phaneuf is lighting the world on fire either, although I'd argue their roles are quite different and one is quite a bit more demanding.  If we don't take on-ice play into account, it's VERY hard for us as fans to make any kind of definitive comment on their respective leadership qualities since we simply do not see enough of them.

 

[Boston Leaf]

Phaneuf seemd to be the guy giving Bernier the pep talk after he got pulled.. Msost just hate Dion so always question the leadership.. How can any fan know what goes on behind closed doors? If he was that poor a leader would Nonis and co have re-upped that contract? The brass had to receive some type of praise ofr his leadership ability

 

[ZBBM]

I knew his offense would come back down to earth a bit, but Lupul has been held pointless in 21 of 33 games this season.  He's had a handful of multi-point games, but he's only registered points in 5 of his last 20 games.

Interesting considering the amount of flak that Kadri gets while Lupul seems to avoid it despite playing equally poor defense (and in fact is suggested as a new captain) and being a more veteran player than Kadri (Lupul on 82 game pace for 53 points, Kadri for 48).

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

How is this relevant to whether he'd be a better captain than Phaneuf?

How is it not? If on-ice play was irrelevant then the league would be made up of 3rd/4th line pluggers as captains who said a lot of "let's go boys!"

But your point seems to be that he's not the highest scorer on the team.  My suggestion is that he's got better leadership qualities than Phaneuf.

My point is more that I've read a few times on here that Lupul has "stepped up" or variations on that during their "slump".  I would argue that Lupul has been wildly inconsistent on the ice, and in fact has not stepped up at all during their slide.  He's paid a good deal of money to provide offense and has not done so - part of leadership is playing to your role on the club, and his is to be that offensive guy because, like Kessel, they don't provide much elsewhere on the ice.

That's not to say Phaneuf is lighting the world on fire either, although I'd argue their roles are quite different and one is quite a bit more demanding.  If we don't take on-ice play into account, it's VERY hard for us as fans to make any kind of definitive comment on their respective leadership qualities since we simply do not see enough of them.

What I've seen from Lupul is a good effort most every night, and then this quote to the media.  I would not call his play "wildly inconsistent"; maybe the results aren't where they were before but I'd call his overall play very consistent.  And, w/o parsing his plus-minus, I wouldn't call his defensive play that bad.

Anyway, I started this thread based on a quote that I would have expected the captain to make.

 

[losveratos]

I knew his offense would come back down to earth a bit, but Lupul has been held pointless in 21 of 33 games this season.  He's had a handful of multi-point games, but he's only registered points in 5 of his last 20 games.

Interesting considering the amount of flak that Kadri gets while Lupul seems to avoid it despite playing equally poor defense (and in fact is suggested as a new captain) and being a more veteran player than Kadri (Lupul on 82 game pace for 53 points, Kadri for 48).

Secondary scoring is really hurting the team, IMO.  It's just not consistently been there this season.

How is this relevant to whether he'd be a better captain than Phaneuf?

How is it not? If on-ice play was irrelevant then the league would be made up of 3rd/4th line pluggers as captains who said a lot of "let's go boys!"

Another point to be made about this... One of the Captains biggest responsibilities is to speak to the on ice officials. They command respect for those who ref them... if for instance Orr was our Capt. he'd only be able to speak to them 5 mintures a night at best. That means a large part of our voice is missing from the ice.

That's why captains are always among the top icetime earners on their team. It's even incredibly rare to give the A's to 4th liners as well because the game is 60min and even if two of them are the 1st line center and the #1 d. that's still not the full game time.

It's very disadvantageous to not have someone on the ice able to maintain communication with the Refs.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I never said he had 'no' value. I personally think he has quite a bit of value.

I take issue with the 'old' comment as he's only 30. I don't necessarily disagree with the injury prone part but that can be said for many players.

But let's say that he is 'old' and 'injury prone'.....What makes you think that he does have 'good value'? What makes you think that a player we(you) consider old and injury prone wouldn't be considered the same to the other 29 teams out there? So now why would they give up significant value for a player with those shortcomings?


It's irrelevant I think though because I'm not too sure many people would be interested in moving Lupul regardless. He's only 30, a good leader, and a talented player.

Well, I specifically and intentionally said, "older".  The implication being that he's not a young guy anymore and is starting to get to that point where things start trailing off.  The idea here is to move him now before that "trailing off" really starts happening.

I say that he has 'good value' because when he plays, he's still fairly effective and has shown (from the outside looking in) good leadership qualities.

Let's keep a few things in mind here.  With Lupul, you get pro's and con's.  We're all aware of his pro's and his con's.  You seem to be focusing on his con's like they're all that exist.  His value is derived from his pro's minus his con's.

Take Lupul, remove his injury prone-ness, and drop his age to 27.  His value would be quite high, a 1st + A-prospect, maybe?  However, given he does have injury concerns, and his age is already 30, we're obviously not going to get that.  Those negatives will drive the value down, but I don't think it'll drive it down to a level where it would be pointless.

Maybe when I said 'good value', you thought I meant more than I actually did.  I was really thinking something along the lines of Kulemin-type roster player + pick, or 2nd + B-prospect.

In the end, his age, cap hit, and injury concerns are reasons why I think we should move him.

I'm not focusing on his 'cons'....You brought the cons up when you gave reasons to trade him.

If all you expect to get out of Lupul is a Kulemin type player and a pick or prospect I'd  ask why you'd want to move him at all?

This team is obviously better with Lupul in the line up than out of the line up. Adding another plugger like Kulemin isn't going to offset that.

If suddenly the movement is to blow up the team and start from scratch, fine trade him....It doesn't appear that a rebuild is in the immediate future...soooooo...I think you take a look at your young talents(Kessel, JVR, Reilly, Gardiner, Kadri) and hope that in 3 or 4 years they can progress to the point that Phaneuf and Lupul can be the leaders on a powerhouse team.