The Brian Burke Thread

[maplesyrup]

The Marlies (on paper) look stronger this year... I don't know if that counts for anything but organizationally, that's progress, isn't it?  :-\ ... and our uniforms look better this year.  ;D

 

[lc9]

See Busta's explanation above, I think that is pretty much how it happens. The whole team has to have their head in the game, it's a team sport.

I read it, it's a common opinion around here.  I disagree with it.  I think there a lot of factors behind the slump, including the rumors, but it would be low on my arbitrary list of direct causes.  The biggest issue is lack of leadership...whether that comes from the coach or the players, and poor coaching overall.

When we play the better teams we get manhandled physically, that is the problem...these guys are wearing down.  Just not a good hockey team, media has little to do with it, imo.

 

[Redleaf]

I guess we'll have to see how accurate 'on pace for' is by years end if thats your only measuring stick for progress.

Dream catchers are not measuring sticks.

Nice.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

When we play the better teams we get manhandled physically, that is the problem...these guys are wearing down.  Just not a good hockey team, media has little to do with it, imo.

Burke was clear that there just wasn't a trade he could have made to change things today, they're a work in progress, young team in the middle of development. What do you do? Start another rebuild? No, you continue to develop and make a trade when it's there. I don't think it's hard to see what is going on here.

The Leafs have players coming, but they have to be developed, lots of people think that they are drafted and then just magically appear on the big club ready to beat the world, or they're crap and need to be traded. That's dramatic, but I don't think it's that far off from the expectations of Leaf Nation sometimes.

 

[Redleaf]

When we play the better teams we get manhandled physically, that is the problem...these guys are wearing down.  Just not a good hockey team, media has little to do with it, imo.

Burke was clear that there just wasn't a trade he could have made to change things today, they're a work in progress, young team in the middle of development. What do you do? Start another rebuild? No, you continue to develop and make a trade when it's there. I don't think it's hard to see what is going on here.

The Leafs have players coming, but they have to be developed, lots of people think that they are drafted and then just magically appear on the big club ready to beat the world, or they're crap and need to be traded. That's dramatic, but I don't think it's that far off from the expectations of Leaf Nation sometimes.

Nicely put.

 

[Deebo]

I agree with this.  How does trade talk make Gustavson deflect a shot that is going wide into his net?

How does coaching make Gustavsson deflect a shot that is going wide into his net?

 

[cw]

The Marlies (on paper) look stronger this year... I don't know if that counts for anything but organizationally, that's progress, isn't it?  :-\ ... and are uniforms look better this year.  ;D

One thing I would say is that they're still the youngest or one of the youngest teams in hockey - which probably makes them more susceptible to the media & rumours.

The other aspect of that is my suspicion that if they iced the same roster over the next year or two, I'd be inclined to expect they'd be a better team. Some of these young guys will get better over the next year or two (and yes a few will have a sophomore slump which  is why I'd say within a couple of years, they will all be through that). And they don't have many creaky old guys in key roles who I would expect to decline as much.

The Marlies success seems largely based on the young talent, as opposed to AHL teams more reliant on their vets. So I think we can reasonably expect some help in the future from their system.

I don't expect a Cup winner from the assets they've currently acquired but I think it's fair to say that they're in a better place than they were over the last few years - even if they project an improvement of only 1 point in the standings this year.

I don't see them falling short of the playoffs, if that happens, as all bad.

 

[lc9]

Burke was clear that there just wasn't a trade he could have made to change things today, they're a work in progress, young team in the middle of development. What do you do? Start another rebuild? No, you continue to develop and make a trade when it's there. I don't think it's hard to see what is going on here.

If it were me, I would have probably started over.  Reason being, I don't think the current talent that he has added or brought in is the talent that is going to win playoff games.  I see a hodge podge of soft players who go into a shell after the first sign of contact. How many years do we define "work in progress," before we can term it what it actually is...a job poorly done.

The Leafs have players coming, but they have to be developed, lots of people think that they are drafted and then just magically appear on the big club ready to beat the world, or they're crap and need to be traded. That's dramatic, but I don't think it's that far off from the expectations of Leaf Nation sometimes.

You're talking about a rebuild here, Burke always preached against that.

Here is what we know, up to this point, Burke has done a poor job of getting us to the playoffs.  Now, some remain optimistic based on the talent that is going to develop.  I just don't see it.  I see the Leafs continue to struggle for 8th seed and get blown up in games that mean a lot. 

I don't think Burke has done a good job building a good hockey team, and the only thing we have to measure that on up to this point, is the standings, and that isn't a favorable measure for fans in Burke's corner, regardless of how objective it is.

Perhaps Kardi, Colborne, Holzer, Frattin lead us to the promise land.  But I am not getting my hopes up. 

 

[Kin]

Burke was clear that there just wasn't a trade he could have made to change things today, they're a work in progress, young team in the middle of development. What do you do? Start another rebuild? No, you continue to develop and make a trade when it's there. I don't think it's hard to see what is going on here.

Again, a fine position to take if the team is marching steadily upwards. But the reality of this team is that they're facing as much uncertainty going forward as just about any team in the league. A lot of people went into the season saying the team had found their goalie in Reimer. Now a lot of people highlight goaltending as something that needs to be "fixed" down the line.

They're a mediocre team with an ok group of prospects. That's just the facts.

 

[L K]

How is it a joke?

There are 3 sports TV networks, two sports radio stations, four major newspapers, two weekly magazines and 5 billion blogs out there covering this team.  Are your expectations that these players should have some sort of super-human powers, capable of not hearing or being at all distracted by trade talk, rumors, all sorts of vile opinions on their performances, etc etc etc?

Please don't give us this "they are millionaires paid to be under the microscope" stuff because it's hogwash.

Hopefully, the players aren't you or I. The players are under no obligation to read blogs or listen to sports talk radio. Millions of people who live in Toronto go through their entire days without reading, watching or listening to anything Leafs related. Everything I've ever seen of player's lives indicates they're not sitting around reading hockey trade rumours on Twitter.

The only thing that's unavoidable is interacting with the media and there's really no difference there between Toronto and New York. Saying otherwise with any kind of certainty is just hogwash.

I agree to a point, but in Toronto, the media = before practice, after practice, before games, during games (intermission), after games.  That also doesn't factor into account the whole "you didn't give us the answer we want so we'll go around you to your Mother to get a better answer" kind of stuff.

It's also the neighbour, the family friend, the wife at home who is stressing about moving her family in the middle of the season (or just simply being away from her husband for the rest of the year).  I don't think it is simply a matter of "don't read the blogs".

I don't think it's a good enough excuse for the Leafs to have their play completely fall apart, but I don't think it is something that can be ignored simply by not logging on to the TSN website.

 

[lc9]

Again, a fine position to take if the team is marching steadily upwards. But the reality of this team is that they're facing as much uncertainty going forward as just about any team in the league. A lot of people went into the season saying the team had found their goalie in Reimer. Now a lot of people highlight goaltending as something that needs to be "fixed" down the line.

They're a mediocre team with an ok group of prospects. That's just the facts.

This is accurate.

 

[Kin]

I agree to a point, but in Toronto, the media = before practice, after practice, before games, during games (intermission), after games.  That also doesn't factor into account the whole "you didn't give us the answer we want so we'll go around you to your Mother to get a better answer" kind of stuff.

Leaving aside the last one, mainly because it's not common and the reason it became a big thing was because of Wilson/Burke's whining, that's all true in New York and Boston and Vancouver as well.

It's also the neighbour, the family friend, the wife at home who is stressing about moving her family in the middle of the season (or just simply being away from her husband for the rest of the year).  I don't think it is simply a matter of "don't read the blogs".

Also things that apply just as much to players in other markets.

I don't think it's a good enough excuse for the Leafs to have their play completely fall apart, but I don't think it is something that can be ignored simply by not logging on to the TSN website.

I'm not saying it can be ignored. I'm saying that it's not this constant, omnipresent crushing factor in their lives(or it doesn't have to be) and it's very comparable to what players in other markets deal with.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Again, a fine position to take if the team is marching steadily upwards. But the reality of this team is that they're facing as much uncertainty going forward as just about any team in the league. A lot of people went into the season saying the team had found their goalie in Reimer. Now a lot of people highlight goaltending as something that needs to be "fixed" down the line.

Since when do you listen to what anybody else thinks at the beginning or middle of a season? It's also not over yet. I'm certainly not going to debate this with you, I'm clear that you're not going to see any progress, unless Burke does what you want him to do, or they magically slip into 8th and then the cup happens. I've never seen this much impatience from you, of all people.

You talk like building a team is an exact science sometimes, rather than seeing it as something that ebbs and flows, based on decisions that are made, which a lot of the time are out of the managements control. There is a lot of reaction to this process IMO, based on things not going according to plan.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

They're a mediocre team with an ok group of prospects. That's just the facts.

Sure, they are right now, but it's a work in progress, that's also a fact.

 

[Corn Flake]

How is it a joke?

There are 3 sports TV networks, two sports radio stations, four major newspapers, two weekly magazines and 5 billion blogs out there covering this team.  Are your expectations that these players should have some sort of super-human powers, capable of not hearing or being at all distracted by trade talk, rumors, all sorts of vile opinions on their performances, etc etc etc?

Please don't give us this "they are millionaires paid to be under the microscope" stuff because it's hogwash.

Hopefully, the players aren't you or I. The players are under no obligation to read blogs or listen to sports talk radio. Millions of people who live in Toronto go through their entire days without reading, watching or listening to anything Leafs related. Everything I've ever seen of player's lives indicates they're not sitting around reading hockey trade rumours on Twitter.

The only thing that's unavoidable is interacting with the media and there's really no difference there between Toronto and New York. Saying otherwise with any kind of certainty is just hogwash.

Well a good half dozen Leafs have accounts on twitter, of which Joffery Lupul was commenting yesterday on the TSN deadline coverage.  To say they aren't reading stuff about them from time to time is simply not reality.  But it doesn't take a twitter account for them to hear the rumors.  They get media in their faces asking them what they think of their name coming up in trade.  Luke Schenn said himself that he was talking to his brother almost daily about the trade rumors.  To say its not a distraction, especially to a young player, is ridiculous and fantasy land stuff.

I'm not implying there is a difference between the two media markets. I said the age/maturity of the players and current standing of the team makes the difference.  The better the team does the less negative media and fan attention there is... simple.

 

[Kin]

Since when do you listen to what anybody else thinks at the beginning or middle of a season?

Since always. I was someone at the beginning of the season who had doubts about Reimer and I'm still someone who has doubts about Reimer. That other people have come around to my way of thinking or, worse, that my doubts have been confirmed isn't what inspires my point of view right now. I'm just left with the inescapable reality that Burke's been running this team for a long time now and the team's not really any closer to having answers to the big questions about where they are going forward. I realize Burke saying "Just trust me" will be enough for you until the sun burns out but I need actual evidence of accomplishment before I give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

It's also not over yet. I'm certainly not going to debate this with you, I'm clear that you're not going to see any progress, unless Burke does what you want him to do, or they magically slip into 8th and then the cup happens.

The second Burke accomplishes something noteworthy with this club and I say it's not enough for me, yeah, you'd be justified in that criticism. But they haven't. I base all my judgments on results, plain and simple. And there haven't been those.

I can't be satiated with a slavish devotion to Brian Burke because I don't work that way. What comes out of his mouth I don't take as the words of the prophet and I'm pretty confident that if we asked people which of the two of us was more objective in our readings of Burke's performance, I'd do alright.

I've never seen this much impatience from you, of all people.

I'm not someone who has patience with stagnation. I never have been, never will be. To me it is as far away from a virtue as someone can have.

 

[lc9]

I think everyone is agreed that the media provides some distraction.

However, some here are asserting that it is the primary reason for the poor play, and that I find curious.  The Leafs haven't been a good hockey team since before the lockout, why then, when we lose 8 out 9, that it is the medias fault and not just bad hockey?

The Leafs are a below average hockey team folks.  That is why they lost 8 out 9.

 

[Corn Flake]

When we play the better teams we get manhandled physically, that is the problem...these guys are wearing down.  Just not a good hockey team, media has little to do with it, imo.

Burke was clear that there just wasn't a trade he could have made to change things today, they're a work in progress, young team in the middle of development. What do you do? Start another rebuild? No, you continue to develop and make a trade when it's there. I don't think it's hard to see what is going on here.

The Leafs have players coming, but they have to be developed, lots of people think that they are drafted and then just magically appear on the big club ready to beat the world, or they're crap and need to be traded. That's dramatic, but I don't think it's that far off from the expectations of Leaf Nation sometimes.

This team came out of the gate flying and stayed at the top of the standings until about early November.  Other than a very short blip in December, they have stayed in the playoff seeds until only days ago.  Their goal differential up until the recent losing streak was about a +15 at one point.  Until that streak hit, they were within striking distance of 4th place. Last year, after game 4 they were out of the race completely until the final 30 games. And they could still very well make it in this year. A number of individual players have made great strides this year such as Kessel and Lupul just to name two, plus several young players have developed nicely (Gunarsson, Gardiner to name two) who are becoming entrenched as key players.

How is that not progress?

 

[Kin]

Well a good half dozen Leafs have accounts on twitter, of which Joffery Lupul was commenting yesterday on the TSN deadline coverage.  To say they aren't reading stuff about them from time to time is simply not reality.

I didn't say they don't. I said they don't have to. They're under no obligation to be on twitter and if it contributes to the unbearable weight that Brian Burke was bleating about yesterday then the team as a responsibility to keep them away from it. 

But it doesn't take a twitter account for them to hear the rumors.  They get media in their faces asking them what they think of their name coming up in trade.

I get that. What I'm saying is that it's not unique to the Leafs.

To say its not a distraction, especially to a young player, is ridiculous and fantasy land stuff.

No, it's the other end of an immeasurable hypothesis.

The better the team does the less negative media and fan attention there is... simple.

Well, that I agree with. But to me that reads like the poor play creates the pressure, not the other way around.

 

[freer]

they are playing bad. if they go on a winning run 8 out of 9 are they good team again, or just playing well