The Brian Burke Thread

[cw]

For those down in the dumps, a good read by a good hockey writer:
Leafs closer to figuring things out than it appears
The Leafs? current slide obscures one thing that Burke has done well ? put some young talent in place that, properly developed, will at some point blossom. On some levels, it is a scorched-earth rebuild, masqueraded by the absence of high draft choices. They are impossibly young now, at the NHL level and down on the farm, and that fact is largely obscured by the manic day-to-day wailing for change, amid the increasingly likely possibility that Toronto will miss the playoffs for the seventh year in a row
....
Generally, when a young team finally figures it out, when the pieces all start to fit together, it doesn?t happen in small steps. It comes in one giant leap forward.

The Leafs are not there yet, but they?re closer than their play in the past month would have you believe. With a little more experience, in goal and on defence, and with a fresh voice behind the bench, it?ll happen. Soon. Promise.

I agree with him. 

 

[lc9]

For those down in the dumps, a good read by a good hockey writer:
Leafs closer to figuring things out than it appears
The Leafs? current slide obscures one thing that Burke has done well ? put some young talent in place that, properly developed, will at some point blossom. On some levels, it is a scorched-earth rebuild, masqueraded by the absence of high draft choices. They are impossibly young now, at the NHL level and down on the farm, and that fact is largely obscured by the manic day-to-day wailing for change, amid the increasingly likely possibility that Toronto will miss the playoffs for the seventh year in a row
....
Generally, when a young team finally figures it out, when the pieces all start to fit together, it doesn?t happen in small steps. It comes in one giant leap forward.

The Leafs are not there yet, but they?re closer than their play in the past month would have you believe. With a little more experience, in goal and on defence, and with a fresh voice behind the bench, it?ll happen. Soon. Promise.

I agree with him. 

I don't really agree.  Just seems like wishful thinking.  The talent we have isn't good enough to have one giant leap forward.  Too soft of a bunch and too weak of a defense to make noticeable strides.  This is turning out to be the worst season, for me, since the lockout.  So much optimism, good hockey for most of the year, then they promptly lose 10 of 11.

This team is no where close to taking a giant leap forward.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

For those down in the dumps, a good read by a good hockey writer:
Leafs closer to figuring things out than it appears
The Leafs? current slide obscures one thing that Burke has done well ? put some young talent in place that, properly developed, will at some point blossom. On some levels, it is a scorched-earth rebuild, masqueraded by the absence of high draft choices. They are impossibly young now, at the NHL level and down on the farm, and that fact is largely obscured by the manic day-to-day wailing for change, amid the increasingly likely possibility that Toronto will miss the playoffs for the seventh year in a row
....
Generally, when a young team finally figures it out, when the pieces all start to fit together, it doesn?t happen in small steps. It comes in one giant leap forward.

The Leafs are not there yet, but they?re closer than their play in the past month would have you believe. With a little more experience, in goal and on defence, and with a fresh voice behind the bench, it?ll happen. Soon. Promise.

I agree with him. 

So he uses Pitts and Wash as examples. Really? One had Crosby and Malkin and the other Backstorm and Ovechkin. Seriously.

 

[cw]

For those down in the dumps, a good read by a good hockey writer:
Leafs closer to figuring things out than it appears
The Leafs? current slide obscures one thing that Burke has done well ? put some young talent in place that, properly developed, will at some point blossom. On some levels, it is a scorched-earth rebuild, masqueraded by the absence of high draft choices. They are impossibly young now, at the NHL level and down on the farm, and that fact is largely obscured by the manic day-to-day wailing for change, amid the increasingly likely possibility that Toronto will miss the playoffs for the seventh year in a row
....
Generally, when a young team finally figures it out, when the pieces all start to fit together, it doesn?t happen in small steps. It comes in one giant leap forward.

The Leafs are not there yet, but they?re closer than their play in the past month would have you believe. With a little more experience, in goal and on defence, and with a fresh voice behind the bench, it?ll happen. Soon. Promise.

I agree with him. 

So he uses Pitts and Wash as examples. Really? One had Crosby and Malkin and the other Backstorm and Ovechkin. Seriously.

How many Cups did LA win with Gretzky? It is a team sport.

It isn't hard to convince me that Schenn has not peaked in his ability. He's still very young for a dman. Gardiner is a rookie with tons of upside. Even Franson is pretty inexperienced. We probably haven't seen the best from Gunnarsson yet. Ditto for Frattin, Kadri, Ashton, Colborne, and some of the five young goalies and other prospects in the system.

Not all of them will work out but Burke has collected enough of them that we are very likely to see significant improvement. Burke could stay with the same players in the franchise next year and I think they'd be a better club.

They lack some elite players - no question. But Burke will land someone or a couple over the next couple of years. Combined with their youth, they'll be a better team. I don't think it's nearly as grim as it was a few years ago.

 

[proteus2000]

With all of the young potential talent that the Leafs have brought in, I think that they will be better next yr but I must be a sucker as I've thought this over the past 2-3 seasons.

Burke didn't evolve with the game when he tried to assemble his original team with truculence, and wasted 2 roster spots on Rosehill/Orr. He was too aggressive coming in at making a contender, and has turned over the roster twice. His FA signings have been horrible, its like he gets the worst guy every yr (Komi, Armstrong, Connolly) while FLA's gm somehow signs 12 guys in one yr and makes a contender out of them. He shouldn't have held onto Wilson this yr. He didn't anticipate goaltender issues. Yes he has done fairly well on the trade front and has gotten a lot of 'potential", but he's made enough mistakes that fans can be frustrated with his time here.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

For those down in the dumps, a good read by a good hockey writer:
Leafs closer to figuring things out than it appears
The Leafs? current slide obscures one thing that Burke has done well ? put some young talent in place that, properly developed, will at some point blossom. On some levels, it is a scorched-earth rebuild, masqueraded by the absence of high draft choices. They are impossibly young now, at the NHL level and down on the farm, and that fact is largely obscured by the manic day-to-day wailing for change, amid the increasingly likely possibility that Toronto will miss the playoffs for the seventh year in a row
....
Generally, when a young team finally figures it out, when the pieces all start to fit together, it doesn?t happen in small steps. It comes in one giant leap forward.

The Leafs are not there yet, but they?re closer than their play in the past month would have you believe. With a little more experience, in goal and on defence, and with a fresh voice behind the bench, it?ll happen. Soon. Promise.

I agree with him. 

So he uses Pitts and Wash as examples. Really? One had Crosby and Malkin and the other Backstorm and Ovechkin. Seriously.

How many Cups did LA win with Gretzky? It is a team sport.

It isn't hard to convince me that Schenn has not peaked in his ability. He's still very young for a dman. Gardiner is a rookie with tons of upside. Even Franson is pretty inexperienced. We probably haven't seen the best from Gunnarsson yet. Ditto for Frattin, Kadri, Ashton, Colborne, and some of the five young goalies and other prospects in the system.

Not all of them will work out but Burke has collected enough of them that we are very likely to see significant improvement. Burke could stay with the same players in the franchise next year and I think they'd be a better club.

They lack some elite players - no question. But Burke will land someone or a couple over the next couple of years. Combined with their youth, they'll be a better team. I don't think it's nearly as grim as it was a few years ago.

No question that they will be better. The question is will them getting better catapult them to elite status like it has with Pitts and Wash (at least for a while, they did win President's Trophy). Without elite young players I hardly doubt that.

 

[Mack674]

For those down in the dumps, a good read by a good hockey writer:
Leafs closer to figuring things out than it appears
The Leafs? current slide obscures one thing that Burke has done well ? put some young talent in place that, properly developed, will at some point blossom. On some levels, it is a scorched-earth rebuild, masqueraded by the absence of high draft choices. They are impossibly young now, at the NHL level and down on the farm, and that fact is largely obscured by the manic day-to-day wailing for change, amid the increasingly likely possibility that Toronto will miss the playoffs for the seventh year in a row
....
Generally, when a young team finally figures it out, when the pieces all start to fit together, it doesn?t happen in small steps. It comes in one giant leap forward.

The Leafs are not there yet, but they?re closer than their play in the past month would have you believe. With a little more experience, in goal and on defence, and with a fresh voice behind the bench, it?ll happen. Soon. Promise.

I agree with him. 

If you change the team name to "Edmonton Oilers" then yeah, I agree completely.

 

[Corn Flake]

For those down in the dumps, a good read by a good hockey writer:
Leafs closer to figuring things out than it appears
The Leafs? current slide obscures one thing that Burke has done well ? put some young talent in place that, properly developed, will at some point blossom. On some levels, it is a scorched-earth rebuild, masqueraded by the absence of high draft choices. They are impossibly young now, at the NHL level and down on the farm, and that fact is largely obscured by the manic day-to-day wailing for change, amid the increasingly likely possibility that Toronto will miss the playoffs for the seventh year in a row
....
Generally, when a young team finally figures it out, when the pieces all start to fit together, it doesn?t happen in small steps. It comes in one giant leap forward.

The Leafs are not there yet, but they?re closer than their play in the past month would have you believe. With a little more experience, in goal and on defence, and with a fresh voice behind the bench, it?ll happen. Soon. Promise.

I agree with him. 

I agree with what he's saying although the giant leap forward isn't necessarily consistent.  As I think the Leafs did this year, they took a leap forward but took one backward in the last 10 games.  It doesn't judge the talent as a whole but where the team is at as far as being ready to take that step, and stay there. 

As far as Burke's best young talent acquisitions, only one of them is on the NHL team right now - Gardiner.  The rest are in the AHL or lower and it will take a few more years to see them have an impact.  There needs to be some patience to understand that the key pieces aren't even on the team and contributing yet.

Someone pointed out Edmonton, who had a nice run at the start of the year but collapsed early.  So do they get accept the "we are still young" excuse? Why them and not the Leafs?  We are talking about the two youngest teams in the league.

Would the Leafs bee looked at differently - the whole age thing - if they had fallen apart in November vs. Feb?  I think so.  Other than the hate for Wilson which wouldn't have changed, the age thing would be acknowledged more than it is today. 

 

[rdowdall]

For those down in the dumps, a good read by a good hockey writer:
Leafs closer to figuring things out than it appears
The Leafs? current slide obscures one thing that Burke has done well ? put some young talent in place that, properly developed, will at some point blossom. On some levels, it is a scorched-earth rebuild, masqueraded by the absence of high draft choices. They are impossibly young now, at the NHL level and down on the farm, and that fact is largely obscured by the manic day-to-day wailing for change, amid the increasingly likely possibility that Toronto will miss the playoffs for the seventh year in a row
....
Generally, when a young team finally figures it out, when the pieces all start to fit together, it doesn?t happen in small steps. It comes in one giant leap forward.

The Leafs are not there yet, but they?re closer than their play in the past month would have you believe. With a little more experience, in goal and on defence, and with a fresh voice behind the bench, it?ll happen. Soon. Promise.

I agree with him. 

If you change the team name to "Edmonton Oilers" then yeah, I agree completely.

It depends on where they finish, but if they get in to the top 5 or top 3 of this years draft, they could get a very good prospect.  Chances are it will be a defenceman, but still a prospect that could be an elite player is still a prospect that could be an elite player.

The only thing that concerns me is that this draft doesn't look to be very strong.

 

[princedpw]

As far as Burke's best young talent acquisitions, only one of them is on the NHL team right now - Gardiner.  The rest are in the AHL or lower and it will take a few more years to see them have an impact.  There needs to be some patience to understand that the key pieces aren't even on the team and contributing yet.

Does Bozak count as a young acquisition?

I do think that people underestimate the pace of change, especially in the blow-it-up rebuild model.  Consider what it takes to fill 4 high-end holes on your team through drafting (say 2 top forwards; 2 top defense).  It is going to take 4 years of successful drafting + at least 3 years of development time for those 4 first round draft picks to fill out the 4 holes successfully with players that are hitting their prime.  That's 7 years to round out 4 from 4 successful 1st round picks. 

And unless you pick in the top 5 each of those 4 times (meaning the players other than those 4 slots are complete junk), it is extraordinarily unlikely you are going to get 4 top-end players after the 7 years from your 4 1st round picks.  As an example, take a look here at the #7 picks over a series of 15 years (go down to "observation 2"):

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2009/6/21/920352/detroit-isnt-that-great-at

At the top end you have Suter, Doan, Lupul (though you'd have had to wait 10 years for Lupul to be where he's at now).  That's 3/15 = 20% chance.  If you pick at #7 3 times in a row, your chance of getting that level of player 3 times in a row is .8%.  Yikes, not good odds!  Chances are you'll get an Okposo, Skille, Beech, Komisarek in the mix.

You are asking about the 2nd round picks?  Well, each one of those probably has a 5% chance of being as good as a Doan and in the 3rd or later rounds, we are probably down to 1% or less.

 

[Fanatic]

steve simmons‏@simmonssteve
Brian Burke, on being asked this AM on Newstalk 1010 if his job was on the line said: "I think its an ignorant question and a gutless one."

 

[Zee]

steve simmons‏@simmonssteve
Brian Burke, on being asked this AM on Newstalk 1010 if his job was on the line said: "I think its an ignorant question and a gutless one."

If that's the exact question I don't see how it's ignorant or gutless? 

 

[cw]

http://www.newstalk1010.com/shows/mooreinthemorning/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10356109

there's a link to the interview

 

[L K]

steve simmons‏@simmonssteve
Brian Burke, on being asked this AM on Newstalk 1010 if his job was on the line said: "I think its an ignorant question and a gutless one."

I'm starting to wonder if Burke can handle the Toronto spotlight.  I don't think he is used to having his bombastic nature questioned.  Vancouver fawns over everything because they have a bad case of short man, big ego complex and Anaheim was a nice land of obscurity where he was able to casually go about his business and win a Cup. 

I don't think he's handling the constant questioning of his job performance.  I do think that it is largely his own fault though.  He came in talking about not wanting a 5-year rebuild and made grandiose statements to a media that doesn't play well with others.  Overall I don't think he has done a bad job of retooling the prospect pool.

On the flip side, I find it funny when the reporters think "do you think you should be fired" is a good question to ask a guy.  I think I would actually be a little annoyed if someone walked up to me and essentially said "You suck, tell me why you should keep your job" when you aren't my employer, I'd be more than a little disappointed.

 

[leafplasma]

steve simmons‏@simmonssteve
Brian Burke, on being asked this AM on Newstalk 1010 if his job was on the line said: "I think its an ignorant question and a gutless one."

I'm starting to wonder if Burke can handle the Toronto spotlight.  I don't think he is used to having his bombastic nature questioned.  Vancouver fawns over everything because they have a bad case of short man, big ego complex and Anaheim was a nice land of obscurity where he was able to casually go about his business and win a Cup. 

I don't think he's handling the constant questioning of his job performance.  I do think that it is largely his own fault though.  He came in talking about not wanting a 5-year rebuild and made grandiose statements to a media that doesn't play well with others.  Overall I don't think he has done a bad job of retooling the prospect pool.

On the flip side, I find it funny when the reporters think "do you think you should be fired" is a good question to ask a guy.  I think I would actually be a little annoyed if someone walked up to me and essentially said "You suck, tell me why you should keep your job" when you aren't my employer, I'd be more than a little disappointed.

He certainly can handle it IMHO.  Handle it like no other.  He just doesn't put up with it and defuses things real quick.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

steve simmons‏@simmonssteve
Brian Burke, on being asked this AM on Newstalk 1010 if his job was on the line said: "I think its an ignorant question and a gutless one."

If that's the exact question I don't see how it's ignorant or gutless?

I wish he wasn't so freaking arrogant. 12th spot in the conference in his 4th year with the team. Amazing results. Guy is a pure bully.

 

[Zee]

http://www.newstalk1010.com/shows/mooreinthemorning/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10356109

there's a link to the interview

Just listened to it, I don't see why Burke snapped at him.  It's a valid question.

 

[cw]

All in all, I think he handles the media fairly well. Toronto has a lot of sports media but not a lot who are that good. So Burke does have to confront or shoot a lot of crap down. I too thought he was over the top on that last interview though. Normally, he's quite good.

His major shortcoming in building the team was going for retooling when the UFA market was going to be so barren. That's why we're on the outside looking in at a playoff berth more than any other reason I can think of.

He did make a fairly decent recovery to acquire good young talent when retooling failed and to get rid of some terrible contracts.

I haven't even considered firing him because I'm a long way from even being at the point where I'd consider it. Expecting perfection from a GM is more elusive than winning a Cup.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

On the flip side, I find it funny when the reporters think "do you think you should be fired" is a good question to ask a guy.  I think I would actually be a little annoyed if someone walked up to me and essentially said "You suck, tell me why you should keep your job" when you aren't my employer, I'd be more than a little disappointed.

Yeah, I mean I don't mind them asking whatever questions they want, but if Burke is coming onto their show it does seem kind of a jerk move if not floated to him prior.

 

[leafplasma]

On the flip side, I find it funny when the reporters think "do you think you should be fired" is a good question to ask a guy.  I think I would actually be a little annoyed if someone walked up to me and essentially said "You suck, tell me why you should keep your job" when you aren't my employer, I'd be more than a little disappointed.

Yeah, I mean I don't mind them asking whatever questions they want, but if Burke is coming onto their show it does seem kind of a jerk move if not floated to him prior.

Exactly, not like some random interview in a corridor at a game or even at a press conference.  Burke got up early and took the call, not cool at all.