The Brian Burke Thread

[Tigger]

unsurprisingly, no. He hasn't been perfect by any stretch, and I agree Leaf success hasn't happened, but I think he's done more good than bad for the Leafs.

Ok. I mean, as I sort of said, I think the only real way to come to that conclusion is to try and project a farm system outward which I'm admittedly leaving aside.

...and fair enough, the farm went to the finals and there's some promise there though admittedly not any stars just yet ( I have hope for Frattin though, kid seems like the real deal ) but that's important overall to me. Like I said, not working miracles or earning 10 miles but above fair.

 

[Kin]

...and fair enough, the farm went to the finals and there's some promise there though admittedly not any stars just yet ( I have hope for Frattin though, kid seems like the real deal ) but that's important overall to me. Like I said, not working miracles or earning 10 miles but above fair.

Well, and Frank sort of helpfully alludes to this, I think that Burke's defenders are perhaps a little too focused on whether Burke's been good and maybe not as much on whether he's been good enough. It's a tough standard, admittedly, but with the resources at the organization's disposal the guy at the top shouldn't be getting a B-.

 

[Tigger]

...and fair enough, the farm went to the finals and there's some promise there though admittedly not any stars just yet ( I have hope for Frattin though, kid seems like the real deal ) but that's important overall to me. Like I said, not working miracles or earning 10 miles but above fair.

Well, and Frank sort of helpfully alludes to this, I think that Burke's defenders are perhaps a little too focused on whether Burke's been good and maybe not as much on whether he's been good enough. It's a tough standard, admittedly, but with the resources at the organization's disposal the guy at the top shouldn't be getting a B-.

I'm not willing to forego the positive based on one seasons worth of negative ( arguably ), though even that yielded a player we're not used to enjoying, however, I honestly think the toughest thing for him to do last season was stand pat. Here's a guy who's under tremendous pressure to bring a playoff team and he doesn't bite at that cost? The guy who loves to trade? I think it was the sort of thing that one could expect to be injurious to the psyche, I'd lay money that wasn't an easy decision, but, the right one.

 

[Frank E]

...and fair enough, the farm went to the finals and there's some promise there though admittedly not any stars just yet ( I have hope for Frattin though, kid seems like the real deal ) but that's important overall to me. Like I said, not working miracles or earning 10 miles but above fair.

Well, and Frank sort of helpfully alludes to this, I think that Burke's defenders are perhaps a little too focused on whether Burke's been good and maybe not as much on whether he's been good enough. It's a tough standard, admittedly, but with the resources at the organization's disposal the guy at the top shouldn't be getting a B-.

I'm not willing to forego the positive based on one seasons worth of negative ( arguably ), though even that yielded a player we're not used to enjoying, however, I honestly think the toughest thing for him to do last season was stand pat. Here's a guy who's under tremendous pressure to bring a playoff team and he doesn't bite at that cost? The guy who loves to trade? I think it was the sort of thing that one could expect to be injurious to the psyche, I'd lay money that wasn't an easy decision, but, the right one.

Inaction, in my opinion, wasn't justified given the circumstances.  Inaction was rightfully criticized given the result after the deadline. 

You can't take away anything positive, anything, from the performance this past spring. 

 

[Tigger]

...and fair enough, the farm went to the finals and there's some promise there though admittedly not any stars just yet ( I have hope for Frattin though, kid seems like the real deal ) but that's important overall to me. Like I said, not working miracles or earning 10 miles but above fair.

Well, and Frank sort of helpfully alludes to this, I think that Burke's defenders are perhaps a little too focused on whether Burke's been good and maybe not as much on whether he's been good enough. It's a tough standard, admittedly, but with the resources at the organization's disposal the guy at the top shouldn't be getting a B-.

I'm not willing to forego the positive based on one seasons worth of negative ( arguably ), though even that yielded a player we're not used to enjoying, however, I honestly think the toughest thing for him to do last season was stand pat. Here's a guy who's under tremendous pressure to bring a playoff team and he doesn't bite at that cost? The guy who loves to trade? I think it was the sort of thing that one could expect to be injurious to the psyche, I'd lay money that wasn't an easy decision, but, the right one.

Inaction, in my opinion, wasn't justified given the circumstances.  Inaction was rightfully criticized given the result after the deadline. 

You can't take away anything positive, anything, from the performance this past spring.

Considering what happened with trade market, it was to me. This past Spring, the Marlies went to the finals.

 

[Frank E]

Inaction, in my opinion, wasn't justified given the circumstances.  Inaction was rightfully criticized given the result after the deadline. 

You can't take away anything positive, anything, from the performance this past spring.

Considering what happened with trade market, it was to me. This past Spring, the Marlies went to the finals.

F the Marlies. 

I care more about individual growth of the prospects than I do about the team result.

 

[Tigger]

Inaction, in my opinion, wasn't justified given the circumstances.  Inaction was rightfully criticized given the result after the deadline. 

You can't take away anything positive, anything, from the performance this past spring.

Considering what happened with trade market, it was to me. This past Spring, the Marlies went to the finals.

F the Marlies. 

I care more about individual growth of the prospects than I do about the team result.

? Alrighty then, I don't agree.

 

[moon111]

Hindsight is 20/20.  So many forces at work, things no one can predict.  If Burke signed the Sedins?  If a player doesn't get hurt.  How a guy like Kulemin handles the death of a friend.  How a rookie handles the pressure of being the #1 goalie.  Nobody wins all the battles.  Burke's done quite well.  Although I think there was a feeling the UFA market would of been better in the Cap world.

 

[Etiam Vultus]

Inaction, in my opinion, wasn't justified given the circumstances.  Inaction was rightfully criticized given the result after the deadline. 

You can't take away anything positive, anything, from the performance this past spring.

Considering what happened with trade market, it was to me. This past Spring, the Marlies went to the finals.

F the Marlies. 

I care more about individual growth of the prospects than I do about the team result.

Has anyone ever seen an analysis of the relationship between an AHL team success and the success of their NHL parent in the following years?  I don't recall every reading anything, but it seems logical, (especially with the veterans rule), that AHL teams that do well should have more and/or better prospects than AHL teams that do not do well.

 

[Kin]

I'm not willing to forego the positive based on one seasons worth of negative ( arguably ), though even that yielded a player we're not used to enjoying, however, I honestly think the toughest thing for him to do last season was stand pat. Here's a guy who's under tremendous pressure to bring a playoff team and he doesn't bite at that cost? The guy who loves to trade? I think it was the sort of thing that one could expect to be injurious to the psyche, I'd lay money that wasn't an easy decision, but, the right one.

I don't see how that relates to the post you quoted at all.

 

[Brian Glennie]

For being the highest paid front office in the league,

I bet Sather and Lamoriello both earn way more.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

For being the highest paid front office in the league,

I bet Sather and Lamoriello both earn way more.

He meant as a whole, with Burke, Nonis and Loiselle amongst others they cumulatively spend a fortune on front office salary.

 

[cw]

Leafs not expecting to be very active in signing free agents
?With the salary cup and the new collective bargaining agreement that?s coming up, I don?t know what our plans are for filling out our roster,? Burke told the large gathering at Credit Union Place. ?Free agency starts on July 1, it?s a really thin group.
?Teams are locking all these quality players up now, so the group that is getting to the market is thin, it?s shallow. There are really two high-end players and that?s about it, (Nashville defenceman) Ryan Suter and (New Jersey forward) Zach Parise.
?I don?t think we are going to be in on either one of them.?

I agree about the UFA market and I'm surprised about Parise & Suter.

?We have too many of those (small forwards),? said Burke. ?We need to get bigger. Our group is too small.

?Brian Burke hockey, if you remember back to our (Stanley) Cup team in Anaheim (in 2007), I like a physical team. I like to dictate how we play. It?s driven me nuts the last couple of years being small. I hate it.
?We?ve drafted big, we have size on the way. . . but we need to get bigger this summer.?

I agree that they're too small up front in particular.

Although there has been speculation the Leafs may be looking to upgrade their goaltending, Burke didn?t rule out starting the season with James Reimer as the team?s No. 1 goaltender.

?This kid, I think, is a legitimate starting goaltender,? said Burke. ?Last year, he was 4-1 when he got hurt, and never got back on the rails.

?This kid is a real religious kid, and to me it helps him play that position where he doesn?t worry too much about things. I believe in this kid, so if we have to start with what we have we are going to. If we can upgrade at a reasonable price we will.?

I'm not as confident in Reimer. But I'm hopeful. There just isn't a lot out there in the UFA market to help. Luongo contract would be a major problem for any GM.

Short-term success
One thing Burke was emphatic on is that he will not sacrifice any of the team?s long-term future for short-term success.
?People say if you don?t make the playoffs you are gone,? said Burke. ?That?s fine. I am not going to do anything short term to make the playoffs and keep my job.
?I want a parade. I?m not interested in making the playoffs ? I want to win another championship.
?If that means we go with what we have because the price doesn?t make sense, I?m perfectly willing to do that. I?ve gotten fired before. It?s not fun, but . . .?

That's precisely why I'd want to keep a GM. Burke has been far from perfect but if he does what he says there, he will eventually put together a good club that can contend for a few years.

If they get stiffed for a goalie this summer and miss the playoffs, so be it. I'd rather that than a stupid panic deal trying to save a GMs job short term. I want a parade too. Short term stuff puts you further away from a parade in general in my opinion.

 

[bustaheims]

If they get stiffed for a goalie this summer and miss the playoffs, so be it. I'd rather that than a stupid panic deal trying to save a GMs job short term. I want a parade too. Short term stuff puts you further away from a parade in general in my opinion.

I'm with you 100% here. If they miss the playoffs this year and land another high pick (maybe even higher), then so be it. It's not the end of the world. In fact, in the long run, it could be much more beneficial. Sell off a few pending UFAs at the deadline, bring more young talent into the system and pick up as many picks as possible in what is supposed to be a very deep draft with two potential franchise level talents at the top with MacKinnon and Jones.

 

[rdowdall]

Leafs not expecting to be very active in signing free agents
?With the salary cup and the new collective bargaining agreement that?s coming up, I don?t know what our plans are for filling out our roster,? Burke told the large gathering at Credit Union Place. ?Free agency starts on July 1, it?s a really thin group.
?Teams are locking all these quality players up now, so the group that is getting to the market is thin, it?s shallow. There are really two high-end players and that?s about it, (Nashville defenceman) Ryan Suter and (New Jersey forward) Zach Parise.
?I don?t think we are going to be in on either one of them.?

I agree about the UFA market and I'm surprised about Parise & Suter.

?We have too many of those (small forwards),? said Burke. ?We need to get bigger. Our group is too small.

?Brian Burke hockey, if you remember back to our (Stanley) Cup team in Anaheim (in 2007), I like a physical team. I like to dictate how we play. It?s driven me nuts the last couple of years being small. I hate it.
?We?ve drafted big, we have size on the way. . . but we need to get bigger this summer.?

I agree that they're too small up front in particular.

Although there has been speculation the Leafs may be looking to upgrade their goaltending, Burke didn?t rule out starting the season with James Reimer as the team?s No. 1 goaltender.

?This kid, I think, is a legitimate starting goaltender,? said Burke. ?Last year, he was 4-1 when he got hurt, and never got back on the rails.

?This kid is a real religious kid, and to me it helps him play that position where he doesn?t worry too much about things. I believe in this kid, so if we have to start with what we have we are going to. If we can upgrade at a reasonable price we will.?

I'm not as confident in Reimer. But I'm hopeful. There just isn't a lot out there in the UFA market to help. Luongo contract would be a major problem for any GM.

Short-term success
One thing Burke was emphatic on is that he will not sacrifice any of the team?s long-term future for short-term success.
?People say if you don?t make the playoffs you are gone,? said Burke. ?That?s fine. I am not going to do anything short term to make the playoffs and keep my job.
?I want a parade. I?m not interested in making the playoffs ? I want to win another championship.
?If that means we go with what we have because the price doesn?t make sense, I?m perfectly willing to do that. I?ve gotten fired before. It?s not fun, but . . .?

That's precisely why I'd want to keep a GM. Burke has been far from perfect but if he does what he says there, he will eventually put together a good club that can contend for a few years.

If they get stiffed for a goalie this summer and miss the playoffs, so be it. I'd rather that than a stupid panic deal trying to save a GMs job short term. I want a parade too. Short term stuff puts you further away from a parade in general in my opinion.

I hate to do this, but it comes back to the Kessel deal.  If he had this thinking before going after Kessel, his team would probably be further along at this point.

 

[cw]

I hate to do this, but it comes back to the Kessel deal.  If he had this thinking before going after Kessel, his team would probably be further along at this point.

You'll get no argument from me. I didn't like the deal then and I still don't like it for the same reason.

Burke figured he could top up the farm while adding some UFAs to become competitive. He was wrong on the UFA market. He grabbed guys like Komisarek thinking they'd be better than they were when they'd become UFAs because their team didn't think they were good enough. A pretty major error.

Top 6 / bottom 6 was a fairly big error as well.

In both cases, the league was trending away from the UFA market and top 6 / bottom 6 and Burke was late catching on - later than some folks around here.

The upside is that at least he realizes it and if you cornered him on it, he's honest enough that he'd admit his errors. It's a lot worse when a manager is too full of himself to admit the errors of his ways. Burke's attempted to save face in the way he's expressed it but he's basically admitted the problems. It may yet cost him his job but given the admission, I can handle a mulligan or two.

 

[rdowdall]

I hate to do this, but it comes back to the Kessel deal.  If he had this thinking before going after Kessel, his team would probably be further along at this point.

You'll get no argument from me. I didn't like the deal then and I still don't like it for the same reason.

Burke figured he could top up the farm while adding some UFAs to become competitive. He was wrong on the UFA market. He grabbed guys like Komisarek thinking they'd be better than they were when they'd become UFAs because their team didn't think they were good enough. A pretty major error.

Top 6 / bottom 6 was a fairly big error as well.

In both cases, the league was trending away from the UFA market and top 6 / bottom 6 and Burke was late catching on - later than some folks around here.

The upside is that at least he realizes it and if you cornered him on it, he's honest enough that he'd admit his errors. It's a lot worse when a manager is too full of himself to admit the errors of his ways. Burke's attempted to save face in the way he's expressed it but he's basically admitted the problems. It may yet cost him his job but given the admission, I can handle a mulligan or two.

Every GM makes mistakes, it's those that correct them that are good.

I do think that the current landscape in the NHL makes it harder to correct your mistakes.  The offset of that though is that the parity means that your mistakes don't hinder you as much as they used, and that you can appear closer to the end goal than you really are.  At the end of the day though, to really compete in this league you need some top end talent, and it looks like the only way to really get it any more is through the draft. 

 

[maplesyrup]

If they get stiffed for a goalie this summer and miss the playoffs, so be it. I'd rather that than a stupid panic deal trying to save a GMs job short term. I want a parade too. Short term stuff puts you further away from a parade in general in my opinion.

I'm with you 100% here. If they miss the playoffs this year and land another high pick (maybe even higher), then so be it. It's not the end of the world. In fact, in the long run, it could be much more beneficial. Sell off a few pending UFAs at the deadline, bring more young talent into the system and pick up as many picks as possible in what is supposed to be a very deep draft with two potential franchise level talents at the top with MacKinnon and Jones.

I'm with you both here too though I think I'd prefer to see us run with Reimer and Scrivens (should we get stiffed) and actually make the playoffs. Partly because I'd just want to see it and partly because I think some of players would benefit from the taste of it.

 

[jonlleafs]

link

Burke's integrity is why I like this guy a lot.  He won't cave into anyone and he doesn't just think about himself.  He would rather be fired than to give up all our prospects to land one guy for a short term fix.  This is exactly the guy you want running your team.  If we don't bail on him too early, I think he can at the very least make the Leafs a very competitive team and for many years (not just a one-hit wonder).

 

[jdh1]

link

Burke's integrity is why I like this guy a lot.  He won't cave into anyone and he doesn't just think about himself.  He would rather be fired than to give up all our prospects to land one guy for a short term fix.  This is exactly the guy you want running your team.  If we don't bail on him too early, I think he can at the very least make the Leafs a very competitive team and for many years (not just a one-hit wonder).

Give him a extension and let him build this team right,I've waited since 67 to see them win a cup from the last time.Most all of our previous management did the shortcuts and get in the playoffs only to be bounced quickly...stay the course...go Burkie.