The Lupul Situation

[cabber24]

The Athletic's (unlocked) story on this: https://theathletic.com/107546/2017/09/21/mirtle-a-closer-look-at-the-nhls-investigation-into-joffrey-lupuls-health-status/

The league initiated this process. I'm told that this wasn't a result of other teams complaining but directly because the league saw the allegations from Lupul on Instagram.

...

All this said, I'm told that even if the independent doctor rules there is something off with the medicals that doesn't mean either player will necessarily return to the roster. What it could mean is that the team won't be permitted to use long-term injured reserve to get cap relief from these contracts.

At the moment, the Leafs can easily become cap compliant even with Lupul's full contract on the books. Obviously that isn't ideal ? having $5.25 million in dead cap space instead of a pile of money to spend during the year ? but it doesn't sound like there will be more ramifications than that from this review.

Mirtle also mentions that Hossa's situation is being looked at too.

That Hossa situation wreaks! The cap circumvention they enjoyed took place during Stanley Cup winning seasons.

 

[sneakyray]

guys...guys...this is going to be very sad but borderline hilarious.  Lupul will be forced to play on the 4th line causing martin to go to the marlies for the week of games until he blows out his wrist or elbow being overzealous taking a drink from a waterbottle.

I mean its not like this guy is going to play a full season ever again injury free...he didn't even when he was "healthy" and was still playing yearly.  Lupul is no gary roberts.

 

[Kin]

As someone who is very emphatically not a doctor it's interesting to, I guess, find out what the standard here is that's going to be used. Is it whether or not Lupul can possibly play despite whatever pain he might be in? Is there a certain independently measured threshold for things like pain or, say, causing further damage?

I was doing some research about sports hernias the other day and it seemed to suggest that most guys can come back relatively quickly but the ones who don't are ones who continue to experience a level of discomfort and might require a second surgery. So is it contingent on Lupul being honest about whatever discomfort he may be in? Or the results of a potential second surgery?

Moreover, if the "unable to play" criteria is effectively a matter of opinion is the NHL's independent doctor required to prove that the Leafs' doctor is objectively wrong? If there's a difference of a matter of opinion does the NHL's doctor win out?

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[bustaheims]

So my fear of investigation due to instagram comments came true!

I'm pretty confident this "investigation" will come back with a similar conclusion to the team - especially in light of the fact that the team isn't using using the potential LTIR space from Lupul's contract.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Moreover, if the "unable to play" criteria is effectively a matter of opinion is the NHL's independent doctor required to prove that the Leafs' doctor is objectively wrong? If there's a difference of a matter of opinion does the NHL's doctor win out?

I saw somebody point this out the other day, but the last time something like this happened with the Leafs the situation was almost reversed. With the Cowen buyout, the Leafs had to argue that he WAS fit to play, now they need to argue that Lupul isn't fit to play. But the problem is that ruling may have established that being "unable to play" is a pretty low standard, because Cowen did seem to injured in some way at that time or at least still recovering from an injury/surgery.

 

[Kin]

I saw somebody point this out the other day, but the last time something like this happened with the Leafs the situation was almost reversed. With the Cowen buyout, the Leafs had to argue that he WAS fit to play, now they need to argue that Lupul isn't fit to play. But the problem is that ruling may have established that being "unable to play" is a pretty low standard, because Cowen did seem to injured in some way at that time or at least still recovering from an injury/surgery.

Well the thing I keep going back to is the Hossa situation(where, interestingly, not quite as many people took the "Well, a Doctor said it so it must be true" position). So much of it seems to boil down to Hossa's pain levels. Something that we just can't know for certain and, as far as I know, neither can Doctors. The Hossa argument seemed to revolve around quality of life. With medication, it seemed to be, that he physically could play but that the medication's side effects were bad enough that he really wanted to not go through it.

Now, to me, that seems pretty reasonable to declare that a case where medically you'd like to say he can't play and the resulting financial implications be ignored regardless of what you think about the honesty, i suppose, of his contract.

So in Lupul's case, for instance, is it going to be about does Lupul want to try and play through a certain of level of pain? Does the pain have to hamper his game to a certain extent?

You and me have sort of agreed on this but the idea that Lupul can't play seems bogus. If the hernia surgery was so unsuccessful that he physically couldn't play then he probably couldn't be up and about being active in other capacities.

So it does seem like this is going to be an argument about diminished capacity rather than yes or no and that's where I think the Leafs are in tough because I really don't think things like IR or, potentially, LTIR are there to protect teams against guys who slow down because of injuries. Especially in a case like Lupul's where, you know, everyone saying he's injury prone knew that when they signed him.

 

[Zee]

So my fear of investigation due to instagram comments came true!

I'm pretty confident this "investigation" will come back with a similar conclusion to the team - especially in light of the fact that the team isn't using using the potential LTIR space from Lupul's contract.

They have to find Lupul first.

 

[bustaheims]

I saw somebody point this out the other day, but the last time something like this happened with the Leafs the situation was almost reversed. With the Cowen buyout, the Leafs had to argue that he WAS fit to play, now they need to argue that Lupul isn't fit to play. But the problem is that ruling may have established that being "unable to play" is a pretty low standard, because Cowen did seem to injured in some way at that time or at least still recovering from an injury/surgery.

What works in the Leafs' favour is that these cases were to address very different outcomes. The Leafs aren't looking to withhold payment from Lupul, etc., so I'm not sure the Cowen situation could even be used as a precedent here. Unable to play for the purpose of being put on IR and unable to play for the purpose of preventing a buy out can definitely be argued to be two differing standards.

 

[disco]

https://twitter.com/Isuckatpicking/status/911039880834068480

 

[sickbeast]

If I were Lupul I would be happy with my current situation.  He's being paid very nicely to do absolutely nothing.  You would think he would have the decency to keep his mouth shut.  The Leafs are sparing him the grind of multiple NHL seasons.  This time off could allow him to fully heal and then have another go at his career once his current contract expires.  He probably hurt his chances of being signed in the future.  No team is going to want a player with loose lips on Twitter.  When healthy Lupul was a good player.  It's just that with the current forward depth on the team, he just doesn't make sense, particularly if he is still even a little bit affected by his hernia or other injuries.  Perhaps Lupul has off ice issues or other issues.  It's pretty telling that they made Robidas a coach but did nothing for Lupul.  There has got to be a reason.  Perhaps management doesn't want Lupul influencing the young players in a negative way.

 

[Frank E]

I saw somebody point this out the other day, but the last time something like this happened with the Leafs the situation was almost reversed. With the Cowen buyout, the Leafs had to argue that he WAS fit to play, now they need to argue that Lupul isn't fit to play. But the problem is that ruling may have established that being "unable to play" is a pretty low standard, because Cowen did seem to injured in some way at that time or at least still recovering from an injury/surgery.

Well the thing I keep going back to is the Hossa situation(where, interestingly, not quite as many people took the "Well, a Doctor said it so it must be true" position). So much of it seems to boil down to Hossa's pain levels. Something that we just can't know for certain and, as far as I know, neither can Doctors. The Hossa argument seemed to revolve around quality of life. With medication, it seemed to be, that he physically could play but that the medication's side effects were bad enough that he really wanted to not go through it.

Now, to me, that seems pretty reasonable to declare that a case where medically you'd like to say he can't play and the resulting financial implications be ignored regardless of what you think about the honesty, i suppose, of his contract.

So in Lupul's case, for instance, is it going to be about does Lupul want to try and play through a certain of level of pain? Does the pain have to hamper his game to a certain extent?

You and me have sort of agreed on this but the idea that Lupul can't play seems bogus. If the hernia surgery was so unsuccessful that he physically couldn't play then he probably couldn't be up and about being active in other capacities.

So it does seem like this is going to be an argument about diminished capacity rather than yes or no and that's where I think the Leafs are in tough because I really don't think things like IR or, potentially, LTIR are there to protect teams against guys who slow down because of injuries. Especially in a case like Lupul's where, you know, everyone saying he's injury prone knew that when they signed him.

So, teams have insurance on contracts for injury situations, right?

I'm wondering if insurance is paying for Lupul's contract, or if the Leafs are paying all of it. 

 

[sickbeast]

I think Lupul's stupid comments could back to haunt both Lupul himself and also the Leafs.  If the NHL rules that Lupul is healthy enough to play, the Leafs will then just bury him in the minors.  Then Lupul will be subjected to more injury and his NHL career could be over.  It could also affect the Leafs' salary cap, which is already going to be tight this year.  I really find it hard to understand a guy complaining when he's being paid over $5 million USD per year to do absolutely nothing.  With his injury history he should be very thankful for the opportunity to fully heal.  Lupul has shown that he has no class, IMO.  Management probably wants to keep him away from the young players.  He would probably be a bad influence.  I'm surprised anyone ever mentioned Lupul as team captain material.  He seems like a bit of a dork.

 

[Kin]

So, teams have insurance on contracts for injury situations, right?

I'm wondering if insurance is paying for Lupul's contract, or if the Leafs are paying all of it.

Tough to say. You wonder if Lupul's injury history would have made it harder to insure.

 

[Frank E]

So, teams have insurance on contracts for injury situations, right?

I'm wondering if insurance is paying for Lupul's contract, or if the Leafs are paying all of it.

Tough to say. You wonder if Lupul's injury history would have made it harder to insure.

Fair point.

 

[sickbeast]

Don Cherry's take on the Lupul situation:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/don-cherry-joffrey-lupul-independent-medical-exam-1.4304269

"I can hear [Lupul's] agent now after reading Joffrey's tweet where he said the Leafs cheat. Indicating he's healthy and can play but the Leafs don't want him and his 5 million dollar contract for the team cap. Who he is accusing is the guy in charge, Lou Lamoriello.
"Joffrey shake your head, Lou is so straight laced as they say... Do you really think that he went to the doctor and said don't pass Lupul? First, that's saying he would risk his reputation and what about the doctor and his reputation?
"There's no way this happened. Joffrey you're getting 5 million for doing nothing. Lay on the California beach. Collect the dough. Lou might bend a few rules but he would never cheat. Word of advice, don't piss him off. Keep your mouth shut."

Cherry just said it like it is.  Lupul really should have kept his mouth shut.

 

[Kin]

Yup. If there's one guy who you can't accuse of cheating, it's the guy who signed the contract that caused the NHL to accuse him of circumventing the cap and fined his team and took away their draft picks.

 

[Frank E]

Yup. If there's one guy who you can't accuse of cheating, it's the guy who signed the contract that caused the NHL to accuse him of circumventing the cap and fined his team and took away their draft picks.

The very guy in charge of the team the league chose to make an example of because of the egregiousness of the cheating.

 

[bustaheims]

Don Cherry's take on the Lupul situation:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/don-cherry-joffrey-lupul-independent-medical-exam-1.4304269

"I can hear [Lupul's] agent now after reading Joffrey's tweet where he said the Leafs cheat. Indicating he's healthy and can play but the Leafs don't want him and his 5 million dollar contract for the team cap. Who he is accusing is the guy in charge, Lou Lamoriello.
"Joffrey shake your head, Lou is so straight laced as they say... Do you really think that he went to the doctor and said don't pass Lupul? First, that's saying he would risk his reputation and what about the doctor and his reputation?
"There's no way this happened. Joffrey you're getting 5 million for doing nothing. Lay on the California beach. Collect the dough. Lou might bend a few rules but he would never cheat. Word of advice, don't piss him off. Keep your mouth shut."

Cherry just said it like it is.  Lupul really should have kept his mouth shut.

Lupul doesn't really have an agent - he and his dad do the negotiations on his contracts, and I'm confident his dad isn't particularly concerned that he accused the Leafs of cheating. He still counts against the cap. He's actually earning $3.5M this season. Lou's teams have been punished for cheating in the past, and I can't recall anyone referring to him as "straight laced" - more "old school," and he's frequently likened to a mob boss. So, I mean, other than missing those fairly easy to discover facts . . .

Of course, as far as takes and the informed fans' opinion of them, Don's ranks down near the bottom among those connected to the league or league broadcasters, so, not a surprise he gets a number of facts wrong in place of defending the old guard.

 

[Kin]

Also, let's be real. Lupul's career is almost certainly over anyway. The idea that this is going to hurt him in anyway seems pretty remote. The only way it will is if he's right, he can play but because he said something true teams decide he's a bad team player.

In which case, honestly, he'll have done a service by exposing what kind of people are running NHL teams.

 

[sickbeast]

Yup. If there's one guy who you can't accuse of cheating, it's the guy who signed the contract that caused the NHL to accuse him of circumventing the cap and fined his team and took away their draft picks.

As usual, some of you guys are being argumentative, full of bombast, for no reason.  There is no actual substance to your comments.  Have a look here:

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nhl/leafs%e2%80%99-salary-cap-could-hinge-on-exam-of-joffrey-lupul/ar-AAssbr3?li=AAggNb9&ocid=spartanntp

?The player is not fit to play,? said a source close to the situation, and echoed by others.

Most people work based on facts and knowledge.  You are spewing misinformation and you're adding nothing at all to the discussion.  Why am I not surprised?  :