The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[L K]

This year:
Scrivens - .843 SV% on the PK      (46th)
Reimer - .808 SV% on the PK        (55th)
Gustavsson - .783 SV% on the PK  (60th)

Last year:
Reimer - .855 SV% on the PK  (68th)
Gustavsson - .784 SV% on the PK (80th)

None of the three goaltenders have been good on the PK...to me, when everyone pretty much views Reimer as playing well, maybe points to the system being garbage.  The Leafs leave far too many guys with uncontested high-quality scoring chances on the PP.  Gustavsson isn't good at handling point shots on the PP, which largely accounts for the difference in SV% on the PK...but Reimer gets hung out to dry.  This team is just really, flipping bad at holding their box.  They screw up because they go chasing the puck all the time.  If the coach can't get guys to stay in a spot on the ice, he is incompetent.

 

[pnjunction]

For all the talk about Ipads, it's a flipping computer.  How is that innovative?

Wilson just needs to get the "Fix my lame PK" app.  I hear the paid version will fix the PP too.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I don't think people consider it innovative anymore - I think it was when his staff first started doing it, and I'm not sure how many use the tablet things on the benches for real-time reviews of plays for players like that, but yeah.

 

[Tigger]

None of the three goaltenders have been good on the PK...to me, when everyone pretty much views Reimer as playing well, maybe points to the system being garbage. 

Fwiw the system I was referring to is not what they do on the PK, ES and PP only.

The thing I find bizarre is how bad the pk has been over years of different players and coaches.

 

[Bender]

None of the three goaltenders have been good on the PK...to me, when everyone pretty much views Reimer as playing well, maybe points to the system being garbage. 

Fwiw the system I was referring to is not what they do on the PK, ES and PP only.

The thing I find bizarre is how bad the pk has been over years of different players and coaches.

This.

I mean, look at the 05/06 team. Their PK was 24th at 80%, but their PP made up for it being 2nd - 21.4%

06/07
PP: 17.7% 16th
PK: 78.5% 27th

07/08
PP:17.8% 15th
PK: 78.1% 29th

08/09
PP: 18.8% 17th
PK: 74.4% 30th

09/10
PP: 14% 30th
PK: 74.6% 30th

10/11
PP: 16% 22nd
PK: 77.4% 28th

11/12
PP: 15.9% 15th
PK: 72.3% 30th

5 on 5: 1.06 14th
Pts%: .618 11th


Our PK has sucked ever since the lockout, and it's not a coincidence that this occurred during a time of horrendous goaltending. For years our goaltending has been shoddy: We saw it with Raycroft, we saw it with Toskala, we saw it with Giguere and we see it now with Gustavsson and Scrivens. How many coaches will you replace if your goaltending simply can't get it done and hold down the fort?

Looking at a team with close to our pts%, Minnesota has a very low goals against per game. Harding and Backstrom are playing lights out. And when you say they play a defensive system, they don't really. Mike Yeo's coaching profile states that he's an up-tempo coach who values puck possession.

Their PP is at 12.1% so they're clearly not getting any help there. But their PK is off the charts.

Again, I don't think this is specifically coaching. I think this is the goaltenders playing their position well and giving the team a chance to win. They're not a defensive minded team as they give up a lot of shots, but are also excellent 5 on 5. Again, in my mind, this is due to stellar goaltending.


I'm not saying the Leafs don't have defensive lapses - they do. The number of times the team doesn't notice a forward sneaking in for a breakaway is inexcusable. But things would be a lot easier and I think the D would take fewer chances making plays if they know we don't need 4 goals a game to win generally.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

Unfortunately, that is how the Leafs are being beat and also unfortunately, the Leafs aren't doing any of those things on a consistent basis to win or at least be in the game.  And Wilson does not make any adjustments during the game to counter what the opposing teams are doing to the Leafs.

 

[Bender]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

Unfortunately, that is how the Leafs are being beat and also unfortunately, the Leafs aren't doing any of those things on a consistent basis to win or at least be in the game.  And Wilson does not make any adjustments during the game to counter what the opposing teams are doing to the Leafs.

Like changing one sub-par goaltender for another sub-par goaltender.

I'm surprised we still haven't picked up on the song and dance.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

Unfortunately, that is how the Leafs are being beat and also unfortunately, the Leafs aren't doing any of those things on a consistent basis to win or at least be in the game.  And Wilson does not make any adjustments during the game to counter what the opposing teams are doing to the Leafs.

Like changing one sub-par goaltender for another sub-par goaltender.

I'm surprised we still haven't picked up on the song and dance.

The system and the goaltending go hand-in-hand.  A bad defensive system results in 30+ shots on the Leaf goalie every game.  A bad defensive system results in more scoring chances for the other team.  Bad goaltending results in more goals and shots that should have been easy to stop, go in.  That in turn results in the defensive system playing with caution and with little or no confidence in the goalie.  The defensive system ends up worse.

Instead of playing chase the puck, Leaf players should be more agressive towards opposing players in the defensive zone, forcing turnovers or forcing opposing players to take low risk shots.  That will result in less shots on goal, and hopefully less goals against. 

 

[Bender]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

Unfortunately, that is how the Leafs are being beat and also unfortunately, the Leafs aren't doing any of those things on a consistent basis to win or at least be in the game.  And Wilson does not make any adjustments during the game to counter what the opposing teams are doing to the Leafs.

Like changing one sub-par goaltender for another sub-par goaltender.

I'm surprised we still haven't picked up on the song and dance.

The system and the goaltending go hand-in-hand.  A bad defensive system results in 30+ shots on the Leaf goalie every game.  A bad defensive system results in more scoring chances for the other team.  Bad goaltending results in more goals and shots that should have been easy to stop, go in.  That in turn results in the defensive system playing with caution and with little or no confidence in the goalie.  The defensive system ends up worse.

Instead of playing chase the puck, Leaf players should be more agressive towards opposing players in the defensive zone, forcing turnovers or forcing opposing players to take low risk shots.  That will result in less shots on goal, and hopefully less goals against.

Right. Have you seen the goaltending outside of last night's game? Goals were going in on non-scoring chances from both Gus and Scrivens. It's not a surprise that when he played well in Columbus we won, even while giving up more shots. The most successful Leafs teams in history have had goaltenders that were marquee players: Ed Belfour, Curtis Joseph, Felix Potvin in recent memory. Those goaltenders played above average in general and the Leafs statistics show it, even if they were getting outshot or outchanced. In the end the Leafs would do more with less BECAUSE they had stellar goaltending. It's not a surprise that after Raycroft, Toskala and an oft injured Giguere that we were playing respectable hockey under Reimer and now we are not under Gustavsson, and only starting to play half decent when Scrivens plays half decent or better.

There are definitely things that need fixing: Their goal scoring has dried up some, their defense isn't water tight, but imo, this doesn't START with special teams, or defense or goal scoring, it starts with the goaltender.

 

[cw]

link
Cold Callers: Finally, must have missed where Ron Wilson, Nick Kypreos, Mike Keenan, Doug MacLean and Brad May were able to squeeze in journalism degrees around their busy hockey duties. In the discussion of The Toronto Star?s Dave Feschuk calling up Maple Leaf goalie James Reimer?s mom for concussion info, they all seem to have become experts on the ethics of reporting. Such multi-taskers. Gentlemen, since you apparently missed the class while pursuing your hockey studies, the credo of journalism is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Because Wilson, in his role as Lord High Executioner, chooses to manipulate the data does not mean the story ends there. Restrict yourselves to ?active sticks? and ?1-3-1? defences and we?ll handle the journalism stuff.

Since when is the media above reproach by those not in the media? Ignoring the fact that four of the people he mentioned above are members of the "hockey media" for this team ...

Dowbiggin is full of it. Or as Dandy Don put it "that's coming from someone who didn't play the game" ? 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

link
Cold Callers: Finally, must have missed where Ron Wilson, Nick Kypreos, Mike Keenan, Doug MacLean and Brad May were able to squeeze in journalism degrees around their busy hockey duties. In the discussion of The Toronto Star?s Dave Feschuk calling up Maple Leaf goalie James Reimer?s mom for concussion info, they all seem to have become experts on the ethics of reporting. Such multi-taskers. Gentlemen, since you apparently missed the class while pursuing your hockey studies, the credo of journalism is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Because Wilson, in his role as Lord High Executioner, chooses to manipulate the data does not mean the story ends there. Restrict yourselves to ?active sticks? and ?1-3-1? defences and we?ll handle the journalism stuff.

Since when is the media above reproach by those not in the media? Ignoring the fact that four of the people he mentioned above are members of the "hockey media" for this team ...

Dowbiggin is full of it. Or as Dandy Don put it "that's coming from someone who didn't play the game" ? 

Dowbiggin is beyond awful.

 

[Bender]

link
Cold Callers: Finally, must have missed where Ron Wilson, Nick Kypreos, Mike Keenan, Doug MacLean and Brad May were able to squeeze in journalism degrees around their busy hockey duties. In the discussion of The Toronto Star?s Dave Feschuk calling up Maple Leaf goalie James Reimer?s mom for concussion info, they all seem to have become experts on the ethics of reporting. Such multi-taskers. Gentlemen, since you apparently missed the class while pursuing your hockey studies, the credo of journalism is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Because Wilson, in his role as Lord High Executioner, chooses to manipulate the data does not mean the story ends there. Restrict yourselves to ?active sticks? and ?1-3-1? defences and we?ll handle the journalism stuff.

Since when is the media above reproach by those not in the media? Ignoring the fact that four of the people he mentioned above are members of the "hockey media" for this team ...

Dowbiggin is full of it. Or as Dandy Don put it "that's coming from someone who didn't play the game" ? 

No offense, but any intelligent human being can flesh out in his or her mind what is ethical and what is not. This has been going for hundreds of years since the time of Socrates and Plato. They're not exactly writing a treatise on the finer points of bio-ethics here.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

Unfortunately, that is how the Leafs are being beat and also unfortunately, the Leafs aren't doing any of those things on a consistent basis to win or at least be in the game.  And Wilson does not make any adjustments during the game to counter what the opposing teams are doing to the Leafs.

Like changing one sub-par goaltender for another sub-par goaltender.

I'm surprised we still haven't picked up on the song and dance.

The system and the goaltending go hand-in-hand.  A bad defensive system results in 30+ shots on the Leaf goalie every game.  A bad defensive system results in more scoring chances for the other team.  Bad goaltending results in more goals and shots that should have been easy to stop, go in.  That in turn results in the defensive system playing with caution and with little or no confidence in the goalie.  The defensive system ends up worse.

Instead of playing chase the puck, Leaf players should be more agressive towards opposing players in the defensive zone, forcing turnovers or forcing opposing players to take low risk shots.  That will result in less shots on goal, and hopefully less goals against.

Right. Have you seen the goaltending outside of last night's game? Goals were going in on non-scoring chances from both Gus and Scrivens. It's not a surprise that when he played well in Columbus we won, even while giving up more shots. The most successful Leafs teams in history have had goaltenders that were marquee players: Ed Belfour, Curtis Joseph, Felix Potvin in recent memory. Those goaltenders played above average in general and the Leafs statistics show it, even if they were getting outshot or outchanced. In the end the Leafs would do more with less BECAUSE they had stellar goaltending. It's not a surprise that after Raycroft, Toskala and an oft injured Giguere that we were playing respectable hockey under Reimer and now we are not under Gustavsson, and only starting to play half decent when Scrivens plays half decent or better.

There are definitely things that need fixing: Their goal scoring has dried up some, their defense isn't water tight, but imo, this doesn't START with special teams, or defense or goal scoring, it starts with the goaltender.

With those goalies the team had players such as Gilmour, Andreychuck, Sundin, Roberts, Niewy etc. and played hard nosed hockey during the Quinn years.  There was a system in place and during the Quinn years, the Leafs regularly were near 100 points...until JFJ took over. 

I played goalie for a long time, playing on teams that were stacked, average or offensively poor.  On teams in which the players were not offensively gifted, we lost most of those games 3-1, 2-0 etc.  My GAA was under 3.00 and my SV% was over .900.  I kept my team in the game, they couldn't keep their end of the bargain.       

You are absolutely correct when you say the team starts with the goalie.  A bad goalie=a bad team (Raycrap etc.), but I say that offence starts with defence and that is my point.  If the system in place makes it easy for other teams to have puck possession in the Leafs zone or the system makes it difficult for the defence to get the puck to the forwards, to start an offensive transition, then no matter who is in net, the Leafs will have a difficult time scoring goals and winning. 

 

[Bender]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

Unfortunately, that is how the Leafs are being beat and also unfortunately, the Leafs aren't doing any of those things on a consistent basis to win or at least be in the game.  And Wilson does not make any adjustments during the game to counter what the opposing teams are doing to the Leafs.

Like changing one sub-par goaltender for another sub-par goaltender.

I'm surprised we still haven't picked up on the song and dance.

The system and the goaltending go hand-in-hand.  A bad defensive system results in 30+ shots on the Leaf goalie every game.  A bad defensive system results in more scoring chances for the other team.  Bad goaltending results in more goals and shots that should have been easy to stop, go in.  That in turn results in the defensive system playing with caution and with little or no confidence in the goalie.  The defensive system ends up worse.

Instead of playing chase the puck, Leaf players should be more agressive towards opposing players in the defensive zone, forcing turnovers or forcing opposing players to take low risk shots.  That will result in less shots on goal, and hopefully less goals against.

Right. Have you seen the goaltending outside of last night's game? Goals were going in on non-scoring chances from both Gus and Scrivens. It's not a surprise that when he played well in Columbus we won, even while giving up more shots. The most successful Leafs teams in history have had goaltenders that were marquee players: Ed Belfour, Curtis Joseph, Felix Potvin in recent memory. Those goaltenders played above average in general and the Leafs statistics show it, even if they were getting outshot or outchanced. In the end the Leafs would do more with less BECAUSE they had stellar goaltending. It's not a surprise that after Raycroft, Toskala and an oft injured Giguere that we were playing respectable hockey under Reimer and now we are not under Gustavsson, and only starting to play half decent when Scrivens plays half decent or better.

There are definitely things that need fixing: Their goal scoring has dried up some, their defense isn't water tight, but imo, this doesn't START with special teams, or defense or goal scoring, it starts with the goaltender.

With those goalies the team had players such as Gilmour, Andreychuck, Sundin, Roberts, Niewy etc. and played hard nosed hockey during the Quinn years.  There was a system in place and during the Quinn years, the Leafs regularly were near 100 points...until JFJ took over. 

I played goalie for a long time, playing on teams that were stacked, average or offensively poor.  On teams in which the players were not offensively gifted, we lost most of those games 3-1, 2-0 etc.  My GAA was under 3.00 and my SV% was over .900.  I kept my team in the game, they couldn't keep their end of the bargain.       

You are absolutely correct when you say the team starts with the goalie.  A bad goalie=a bad team (Raycrap etc.), but I say that offence starts with defence and that is my point.  If the system in place makes it easy for other teams to have puck possession in the Leafs zone or the system makes it difficult for the defence to get the puck to the forwards, to start an offensive transition, then no matter who is in net, the Leafs will have a difficult time scoring goals and winning.

Agreed on almost all points, but I just have to say that the 97/98 Leafs were a pitiful team, but 98/99 the biggest addition was Cujo (and Quinn) and we became an incredible team. Coaching plays a big role in it, but I can't ignore the strength of Cujo.

And using the Red Wings as another example: (And I know this isn't foolproof as Osgood had bad numbers too, but...) Ty Conklin is 1-2-1 with a .885 SV%. Even their system can't mask a bad goaltender.

 

[Fanatic]

Question for cw if he gets a chance to see this....

cw, if Wilson were canned today and hiring the replacemnet was up to you, who would you hire?

Now I realize that the answer could be different depending on who you are in all this - so let's assume that you are Burke - a man who is also starting to come under scutiny and someone who has to be thinking about the need for short term results. In otherwords, who do you hire as coach to make the most difference right now?

I'm not sure. I've been mulling it over and collecting names mentioned in the media:

Andy Murray
Bob Gainey
Bob Hartley
Cory Clouston
Craig Mctavish
Dale Hunter
Dallas Eakins
Dave Cameron
David Quinn
Davis Payne
Doug Gilmour
Guy Carbonneau
Jacques Lemaire
John Anderson
John Hynes
Kevin McCarthy
Kirk Muller
Kurt Fraser
Kurt Kleinendorst
Lane Lambert
Larry Robinson
Marc Crawford
Mark Hunter
Mark Reeds
Michel Therrien
Mike Haviland
Mike Keenan
Pat Quinn
Patrick Roy
Perry Pearn
Rick Dudley
Scott Gordon
Ted Nolan
Wayne Gretzky
- and I'm sure folks here could add a few names to that list while scratching a bunch they wouldn't consider

Now some of those guys aren't available - they're retired or involved with another organization. Some of them, I don't care for. Some of them haven't coached in a while. Some of them lack experience. Some of them I don't know enough about. Some of them are not a good fit with the talent the Leafs have - too defensively minded for example.

But one thing I would conclude from that list: there are plenty of potential candidates. And therefore, I can't conclude there isn't available coaching talent out there that might be able to do a better job than Wilson.

I think it depends on what Burke wants to do. Is an interim coach a possibility for Burke? It would be if I was in his boots and ready to cut Wilson loose but I don't think Burke is close to there yet. If that were the case, I suspect Burke would look closely from within: Eakins or one of Wilson's newly hired assistants.

Short term, a coach with NHL experience would probably be ideal for a mid-season change to salvage the season and I'd look closer at these guys (on the presumption a bunch of the above NHL coaches are not available):
Andy Murray - doubt he can leave Michigan but ..
John Anderson - if available from Phoenix
Pat Quinn - too old for serious consideration long term - might have 50 games left in him

Longer term, at the end of the season, these guys intrigue me:
Kirk Muller
Mark Reeds
Mike Haviland

I don't care for the Keenan-Crawford-Hartley style of coaching or they would be obvious candidates. Someone like Carbonneau is a respectable NHL coach but I worry he's too defensively minded to salvage this group this season.

So I don't have a firm answer. Those are my thoughts to date.

I have been thinking about this. Call me nuts, but if I had to make a change right now I think I would go with Carbonneau. Defense wins out over offense in this league. You have got to shut the other teams down.

If a change is coming then I expect it will be within the next 2 - 4 weeks.

 

[Bender]

Question for cw if he gets a chance to see this....

cw, if Wilson were canned today and hiring the replacemnet was up to you, who would you hire?

Now I realize that the answer could be different depending on who you are in all this - so let's assume that you are Burke - a man who is also starting to come under scutiny and someone who has to be thinking about the need for short term results. In otherwords, who do you hire as coach to make the most difference right now?

I'm not sure. I've been mulling it over and collecting names mentioned in the media:

Andy Murray
Bob Gainey
Bob Hartley
Cory Clouston
Craig Mctavish
Dale Hunter
Dallas Eakins
Dave Cameron
David Quinn
Davis Payne
Doug Gilmour
Guy Carbonneau
Jacques Lemaire
John Anderson
John Hynes
Kevin McCarthy
Kirk Muller
Kurt Fraser
Kurt Kleinendorst
Lane Lambert
Larry Robinson
Marc Crawford
Mark Hunter
Mark Reeds
Michel Therrien
Mike Haviland
Mike Keenan
Pat Quinn
Patrick Roy
Perry Pearn
Rick Dudley
Scott Gordon
Ted Nolan
Wayne Gretzky
- and I'm sure folks here could add a few names to that list while scratching a bunch they wouldn't consider

Now some of those guys aren't available - they're retired or involved with another organization. Some of them, I don't care for. Some of them haven't coached in a while. Some of them lack experience. Some of them I don't know enough about. Some of them are not a good fit with the talent the Leafs have - too defensively minded for example.

But one thing I would conclude from that list: there are plenty of potential candidates. And therefore, I can't conclude there isn't available coaching talent out there that might be able to do a better job than Wilson.

I think it depends on what Burke wants to do. Is an interim coach a possibility for Burke? It would be if I was in his boots and ready to cut Wilson loose but I don't think Burke is close to there yet. If that were the case, I suspect Burke would look closely from within: Eakins or one of Wilson's newly hired assistants.

Short term, a coach with NHL experience would probably be ideal for a mid-season change to salvage the season and I'd look closer at these guys (on the presumption a bunch of the above NHL coaches are not available):
Andy Murray - doubt he can leave Michigan but ..
John Anderson - if available from Phoenix
Pat Quinn - too old for serious consideration long term - might have 50 games left in him

Longer term, at the end of the season, these guys intrigue me:
Kirk Muller
Mark Reeds
Mike Haviland

I don't care for the Keenan-Crawford-Hartley style of coaching or they would be obvious candidates. Someone like Carbonneau is a respectable NHL coach but I worry he's too defensively minded to salvage this group this season.

So I don't have a firm answer. Those are my thoughts to date.

I have been thinking about this. Call me nuts, but if I had to make a change right now I think I would go with Carbonneau. Defense wins out over offense in this league. You have got to shut the other teams down.

If a change is coming then I expect it will be within the next 2 - 4 weeks.

I like Carbonneau. I think he could do a good job.

 

[Tigger]

Out of that group I wouldn't mind Dale Hunter ( unpossible ) Pat Quinn ( may be past his prime but I still like him ) or maybe a Ted Nolan ( has he served his full suspension yet? ).

I'd get behind a Gilmour or Muller choice as well but that would be from the heart sleeve.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

The team is in the midst of a rough stretch. It happens. And yet, they've still won 3 of their last 6 games. We're not exactly in end of the world, blow it all up territory here. I don't think anyone will tell you that the team has played well, but, before we start throwing coaches and players under the bus, let's look at things in perspective first and cut out the hyperbole. Let's also remember that different does not always mean better. Firing Wilson won't make the Leafs a better team in and of itself. Unless there's a clear choice out there that will make the players on the ice able to execute a system more effectively, play better defensively and generate more secondary scoring, it becomes change for the sake of change - and that doesn't actually benefit anybody.

I have always respected your posts - they are written with wisdom and insight, but I totally disagree with you on this one. 

If I am an opposing coach of a team facing the Leafs, I am going to emphasize on my players to forecheck, be agressive to the puck and to the puck carrier, skating hard and fast and to pressure the d-men.  I am going to emphasize muddling up the neutral zone, forcing the Leafs to shoot the puck in.  On the PK, I will emphasize to the players to keep the Leafs around the perimeter and cut down on the shooting lanes.  On the PP, I will emphasize passing the puck back and forth, thus forcing the Leaf players to play 'chase the puck'.  I will send at least one player to the front of the net during the PP, making it hard for the Leaf goalie to make the save and perhaps drawing another penalty by a Leafs defender.  At all times have my best defensive forward against Kessel.

If every team played that way against the Leafs, I guarantee the Leafs would not win many games, and that is why Wilson should be fired.  He cannot adapt the players to counter what other teams are doing to the Leafs.

In fairness, most coaches emphasize those things when they face any other team in the NHL and their respective best players, and not just the Leafs.

Unfortunately, that is how the Leafs are being beat and also unfortunately, the Leafs aren't doing any of those things on a consistent basis to win or at least be in the game.  And Wilson does not make any adjustments during the game to counter what the opposing teams are doing to the Leafs.

Like changing one sub-par goaltender for another sub-par goaltender.

I'm surprised we still haven't picked up on the song and dance.

The system and the goaltending go hand-in-hand.  A bad defensive system results in 30+ shots on the Leaf goalie every game.  A bad defensive system results in more scoring chances for the other team.  Bad goaltending results in more goals and shots that should have been easy to stop, go in.  That in turn results in the defensive system playing with caution and with little or no confidence in the goalie.  The defensive system ends up worse.

Instead of playing chase the puck, Leaf players should be more agressive towards opposing players in the defensive zone, forcing turnovers or forcing opposing players to take low risk shots.  That will result in less shots on goal, and hopefully less goals against.

Right. Have you seen the goaltending outside of last night's game? Goals were going in on non-scoring chances from both Gus and Scrivens. It's not a surprise that when he played well in Columbus we won, even while giving up more shots. The most successful Leafs teams in history have had goaltenders that were marquee players: Ed Belfour, Curtis Joseph, Felix Potvin in recent memory. Those goaltenders played above average in general and the Leafs statistics show it, even if they were getting outshot or outchanced. In the end the Leafs would do more with less BECAUSE they had stellar goaltending. It's not a surprise that after Raycroft, Toskala and an oft injured Giguere that we were playing respectable hockey under Reimer and now we are not under Gustavsson, and only starting to play half decent when Scrivens plays half decent or better.

There are definitely things that need fixing: Their goal scoring has dried up some, their defense isn't water tight, but imo, this doesn't START with special teams, or defense or goal scoring, it starts with the goaltender.

With those goalies the team had players such as Gilmour, Andreychuck, Sundin, Roberts, Niewy etc. and played hard nosed hockey during the Quinn years.  There was a system in place and during the Quinn years, the Leafs regularly were near 100 points...until JFJ took over. 

I played goalie for a long time, playing on teams that were stacked, average or offensively poor.  On teams in which the players were not offensively gifted, we lost most of those games 3-1, 2-0 etc.  My GAA was under 3.00 and my SV% was over .900.  I kept my team in the game, they couldn't keep their end of the bargain.       

You are absolutely correct when you say the team starts with the goalie.  A bad goalie=a bad team (Raycrap etc.), but I say that offence starts with defence and that is my point.  If the system in place makes it easy for other teams to have puck possession in the Leafs zone or the system makes it difficult for the defence to get the puck to the forwards, to start an offensive transition, then no matter who is in net, the Leafs will have a difficult time scoring goals and winning.

Agreed on almost all points, but I just have to say that the 97/98 Leafs were a pitiful team, but 98/99 the biggest addition was Cujo (and Quinn) and we became an incredible team. Coaching plays a big role in it, but I can't ignore the strength of Cujo.

And using the Red Wings as another example: (And I know this isn't foolproof as Osgood had bad numbers too, but...) Ty Conklin is 1-2-1 with a .885 SV%. Even their system can't mask a bad goaltender.

But the Wings will make the playoffs.  Leafs may not.

 

[Tigger]

...and a good Leafs team made Schwab a household name for a while but this isn't that team, like you say, they're not the Red Wings and need consistent decent goaltending right now where others may be able to get away with something less.

 

[Zee]

May I reiterate my stance here that I would really like to see Ron Wilson fired.